ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Especially on your first run as a Temporal Warden when you don't know what to expect...

My first experience went like this: Suddenly confronted with a future version of you, higher level unique boss monster with tons of health. I popped my shield and stunned him with Stop and D-stepped next to him and hit him with a massive flurry. He doesn't die but instead shouts "Meet the guardian". Now I find myself in front of a boss with 1500hp and +13 levels on me. My best skills are on cooldown, which doesn't help, but he completely annihilates me anyway.

Stay the hell away from there, then, I guess. My next playthrough was with a Skeleton Temporal Warden since I'd just unlocked the Skeleton race.

(quick aside: the skeleton generic skills are AWFUL. The shield blocks 11 damage when you can first get it (which later rose to a massive 14 with a ton of dexterity), the trap deals a totally pointless amount of damage and his heal is utterly useless, are they supposed to be this way? I even stored up some points and leveled them up without saving and that shield never gets above 60 damage absorbed; useless?)

Skellies level super slow so I didn't go into the Daikara as high as I'd of liked (Level 19) but I'd cleared out every other area and had just killed the Weirdling in three turns flat (My flurry hit him for over 600 damage) so I was feeling pretty good about my power.

I blitz through levels 1-3 pretty much killing everything in one hit, I'm obviously over-powered for this area. I manage to beat down my future self with nothing on cooldown and on good health, so I felt ready...

And I got destroyed. Totally smashed. Because of his resistance to Temporal my flurry was dealing only about 300 damage which was nothing on his 1500 health. I had no chance of stopping him summoning his two clones and they WRECK me. My Skelly had no health regen at all, which didn't help, but it was pointless anyway as the main Epoch just runs away constantly whilst his clones blast me to death. I actually managed to trap him in a corner and proceed to hit him with everything I had, but tons of damage reflected back to me and his clones finished me off easily.

Are you just expected to get to level 26+ or something? Am I missing some secret way to not get slaughtered? Is it supposed to be a horrible newbie trap?

I did it by changing to a ranged fighting style and keeping as far away from him as possible, using a hit-run-and-rest tactic. It took like forever but wasn't too dangerous (I never dropped below 60% health).

My temporal warden didn't have trouble with Epoch, but I built her mostly like an archer who happened to have some buffs and utility spells. I kept him slow and stunned as much as possible, and shot him from a distance.

I've killed him with both a melee and a ranged warden, the ranged warden was much easier.

For melee I kept him stunned as much as possible or confused with swap and stayed close so he'd retreat instead of multiply.

Yeah, it is a hard fight. I wouldn't call it a newbie trap though since most people who do that quest should be fairly experienced (having unlocked wardens).

And by hard fight... yes people will die. Live and learn.

p.s. I always do daikara last because of The Rift (rather you're a warden or not) and the random unique that likes to show up in there. It's not an easy dungeon because of the extra content.

edge2054 wrote:p.s. I always do daikara last because of The Rift (rather you're a warden or not) and the random unique that likes to show up in there. It's not an easy dungeon because of the extra content.

Hmm... maybe the rift should be moved to another dungeon? That is a total of three potential unlocks in a single dungeon, with zero unlocks in most other dungeons. The random unique makes a lot of sense in that zone so it should stay in Daikara. Where could the Void/Rift go?

Thanks for the responses guys.

What level were you when you beat him? I normally clear out the Daikara at levels 15-17 and it's pretty easy at those levels for the classes I've tried. The Rift is also really easy. I think the Temporal Warden is the easiest class to unlock which is why I call it a newbie trap, as you'll go through the Daikara as normal and the battle with your future self comes outta nowhere with no warning.

Few people would avoid the battle with your future self when they first encounter it, and then you become totally stuck in a MUCH harder battle than you would expect from the dungeon level with no way of escape. It doesn't matter if you're playing Adventurer with 10 extra lives, you'll keep being put back into that tiny arena and destroyed until it's game over.

I expect it was the fact that I was a Skeleton. Most other races would have been level 23+ and probably been able to beat him down without too much bother. I left it till the very last and squeezed out as much exp as I could before heading there but it wasn't nearly enough. The lack of healing or regeneration hurts a lot as well.

DMT wrote: Few people would avoid the battle with your future self when they first encounter it, and then you become totally stuck in a MUCH harder battle than you would expect from the dungeon level with no way of escape.

Pretty much, yes. I wanted to lose to my future self, because I'd heard you could do that, and just get the unlock. But my future self refused to act after a while. He just stood there and would not attack me. So I had to attack him, and then Epoch killed me dead. I was totally not prepared for such an encounter. I was prepared to stand there like a punching bag and die to my future self in Daikara. It didn't happen.

I think the Temporal Warden is the easiest class to unlock which is why I call it a newbie trap

No, no, not even close. Summoner is the easiest; Archmage is the second easiest. Wyrmic is probably third.

I had no trouble with Epoch on my first ever attempt. I hadn't even been gearing toward ranged combat (not skill-wise anyway, they were all dumped elsewhere). I attribute it mostly to Epoch being a pansy coward and trying to keep his distance, so what I had done was get him behind an impassable block in the center ish of the area and dance into/outof LoS while waiting for infusions to cool down, then pelting him with my Corpsebow. Kind of a cheesy tactic but it worked.

My second run through was a little more dangerous but the basic strategy still boiled down to towing with his 'stay at a fixed range' mechanic. This was complicated by backing him into a corner and his spawning more clones but I still had time to whittle them and eventually him down without much risk to myself.

Level range might be a huge factor. I do Daikara last before Dreadfell (even doing the Ruined Dungeon before it), so I was about level 25. I also was not a skeleton, who I would argue are pretty Hard Mode since healing and regeneration infusions are ridiculously powerful, and probably the only reason that I get as far as I do in the first place (which still isn't much beyond going to the East).

So, what about Paradox Mage unlock? I killed Epoch in v24 and still didn't get it.May be player shouldn't attack future self at all and allow to be killed quietly?

Postman wrote:So, what about Paradox Mage unlock? I killed Epoch in v24 and still didn't get it.May be player shouldn't attack future self at all and allow to be killed quietly?

I really, truly tried to do that. It did not work. The game would not oblige me by holding up its end of the bargain. At first, the future self was nice and active, and took actions against me -- mostly teleporting me away halfway across the level, where I'd have to fight my way through more giants and drake hatchlings and so on, to get back to him for more abuse. But after a while, he just gave up trying to beat me. My stubborn refusal to fight back must have unnerved him.

Hmm... maybe the rift should be moved to another dungeon? That is a total of three potential unlocks in a single dungeon, with zero unlocks in most other dungeons. The random unique makes a lot of sense in that zone so it should stay in Daikara. Where could the Void/Rift go?

It's worse still. I just ran into this encounter for the first time where my future self met me at the stairs with a lost anorithil. The escort quest automatically fails when you are forced to "meet the guardian." There should not be an escort quest on the same level. I'd suggest putting the void/rift in the middle of Dreadfell, since it's a required dungeon to progress further in the game and characters will be high enough level and developed enough to handle the encounter.

Is Epoch toned down in v26? In v25 he wiped the floor with my melee Worden...

I'd beaten Epoch in v26. Barely. That required every trick I knew, careful planning from the start of the game and some luck. I leveled up specifically for Epoch, being lvl 21 at the fight.
Critical elements were: shield, movement and wild for mag/physics/mental inf/runes, lvl 4 wormhole, lvl 5 haste, flurry and full set of escort rewards - fortitude,premonition,providence and dagger with slime.
I didn't manage prevent Epoch multiplication, so I did a lot of pillar dancing. Epoch didn't regenerate health, with regeneration situation would be unwinnable. I attacked whatever Epoch instance or elemental was most vulnerable and hide trying regen health/cooldown talents. Dim step wasn't effective, but controlled wormhole was lifesaver. I usually attacked with movement and retreated with wormhole.
After some time I killed all elementals and one Epoch instance. With only two Epoch situation become manageable as they wern't supporting each other as effectively as three. Second epoch killed was "real" and opened portal. I didn't stretch my luck and run without trying for third Epoch.

Yay to thread necro !

My very promising Warden is now stuck at the Eidolon Plane. No option of going back to the world map. Going to Epoch means I will die in about 3 rounds. How the heck are we supposed to beat 5 hasted boss, each of them is 5 levels higher than you....
I just dont think its a very good design to spring such a trap. Maybe if one can still escape using Eidolon it'd be more reasonable.

:RAGE:

I think it's because it would break the encounter, requiring some more sophisticated coding (the code for interactions between zones in ToME is strange). I've always found the encounter a little confusing - you can get instagibbed by the paradox-self if you don't have any experience with the encounter or you miss the very minor and unclear message about your "lifeline being severed;" it's possible to get the unlock (or at least it was) without encountering Epoch if you are lucky; you can't escape the very dangerous Epoch encounter, which comes out of nowhere and has basically zero associated lore, and the two reasons you'd actually want to be in this encounter aren't even guaranteed rewards (Epoch doesn't always drop the bow and you have to kill the paradox-self to get the Rune). Also, the best way to handle the lifeline-severing is by teleporting/running away, which is sometimes impossible in the extremely confined entrances to the Daikara zones.