ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Hey, I know you guys have all been wanting more of a reckless Chronomancer class and I've been working with Aeoch to flesh out her ideas. My intention is to code this class for 1.4. The talent's still need some polish and I imagine a lot will change between now and implementation but here's a peek at her design document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13nf ... 61ask/edit

Over the next week or so I'll be migrating things into a spreadsheet. Once 1.3 is out I'll start coding this for 1.4.

As I said a lot will probably change between now and implementation but the basic premise of the class is the 'chaotic' chronomancer that's not concerned about tearing apart space and time if it serves their own ends. They're not necessarily 'evil' but they're methods will probably be at odds with the Keeper's of Reality and I don't believe they'll start in that zone.

I'll add a spreadsheet to this OP once it's filled out and start asking for more specific feedback here soon. Hopefully Aeoch will drop in and add her thoughts to the discussion as well as the class is more her baby than my own

But in the meantime if anyone could take the time to look over the design doc and offer name ideas it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Fold Reality seems too weak in its current form. Using half a turn to gain 3 turns of increased armor (and no increased hardiness?) just doesn't seem worth it. If it's only going to last 3 turns, it should be instant cast. If you want to keep the cast time, the duration should be longer and it should probably increase armor hardiness too.

Hi Effigy, thank you for your input! It is duly noted!

I don't want it to be instant cast as to me, if it is instant cast it begs the question why is it not a passive. I extended the duration as well as the cooldown, and added an armor hardiness effect. We'll see where it goes from there!

That seems better. Overall the class seems really cool. I haven't read the document 100% yet, but I look over most of it.

Glad to hear it! Feel free to offer any more criticism if you see something!

Strike Through Time still references the Taleblade.

Out of curiosity, what happened to it?

Also, have you considered making Sunder Time interact more with Paradox? Maybe it could give crit chance, scaling with paradox level, and increase (or decrease, I dunno) paradox on a successful crit?

Hey Malboro!

I noticed that Strike Through Time still referenced Taleblade as well, changed that. We decided a different theme was necessary. Also, Sunder Time recently went through some changes, it initially synergized with Schisms, but wasn't in the Schisms tree, so it was a little awkward. I'll definitely consider the bonus crit chance scaling with your current Paradox, I find that interesting..

malboro_urchin wrote:Strike Through Time still references the Taleblade.

Out of curiosity, what happened to it?

I think for a bonded weapon class to work really well it needs to permeate the class a bit more than it would have in Aeoch's design document. The Taleblade basically had two very strong themes and they conflicted somewhat mechanically.

Of the two the reckless chronomancer is probably the better one to balance out warden's more heroic theme.

I may still try to do a bonded weapon class at some point. Not sure if it will be a chronomancer though.

I think Pierce the Veil would be better off with temporal res pen instead of armor pen, especially since the talent right after it in that tree converts your damage to temporal. Also, I'm not too sure about how the mechanics of armor pen work, but isn't it far more significant with rogues/shadowblades/arcane blades who dual wield daggers and flurry regularly, rather than heavy-hitting 2h users like this class?

Why does Infinitum Ascension knock enemies away? It's nice that it dazes and damages without breaking daze, and it sort of remedies the knockback by giving Rip Through Time no cooldown, but I still don't see any real advantage in a melee class's ability creating distance between the character and enemies.

Also, has anyone given thought to an ability where your strike screws up spacetime so hard that it creates a temporal rift that spawns void horrors/losgoroths/teluvortae? Seems in line with the whole chaotic theme and all, plus it contrasts with TW's temporal hounds tree, in that 1) you're spawning horrors through violence instead of guardian hounds through focus and disciplined timeline management, and 2) this effect would be limited to one talent, as opposed to how TW's devote a whole locked category to their hounds.

Edit: This class reminds me a lot of Cursed, with the whole undisciplined rampaging across timelines, and all the on-hit effects available to the player seem like they'd definitely allow for a very strong bump-heavy build

malboro_urchin wrote:I think Pierce the Veil would be better off with temporal res pen instead of armor pen, especially since the talent right after it in that tree converts your damage to temporal. Also, I'm not too sure about how the mechanics of armor pen work, but isn't it far more significant with rogues/shadowblades/arcane blades who dual wield daggers and flurry regularly, rather than heavy-hitting 2h users like this class?

Agreed. I'm not entirely sure how the armor penetration functions mechanically either, and if it truly does benefit dual wield classes much more, you're totally right. I'll alter this.

malboro_urchin wrote:Why does Infinitum Ascension knock enemies away? It's nice that it dazes and damages without breaking daze, and it sort of remedies the knockback by giving Rip Through Time no cooldown, but I still don't see any real advantage in a melee class's ability creating distance between the character and enemies.

The idea with this is that you're using it in synergy with Phase Assault to teleport to your target, while giving you distance against the others while they are dazed and can't really do much. It also allows you to start casting Rip From Time on anything and everything to position them how you like during Infinitum Ascension. Also, when you use Infinitum Ascension from Evermore, it gives you breathing room coupled with the daze to recover from recently reviving after a tough down.

I'm not sure if you'll view this is legitimate reasoning, as I do understand where you're coming from with how you feel it is anti-synergistic, but I feel it justifies it. My thoughts are always subject to change, though!

If I'm reminded of Doul's Possible Sword (link is to the Dungeons of Dredmore item, because it was easier than tracking down the Mieville original), a sort of technomantic artifact that follows every possible path when swung. I think there may also have been an element where the wielder actually needed to be be bad at sword-fighting to maximize the number of paths. Alternate realities seem to match the mechanics in Infinity Edge a little better than pulling from the past or future.

References to "X buff" should probably be replaced with "positive X effect" to match the existing standard.

Would Echo Strike trigger off of the basic attacks triggered by Echo Strike? Or do those not count as direct damage? If so, that might need a rephrase.

Chaotic Blow's fluff is hilarious, but a little out of place. I would love a berserker mathematician class, but this seems more like a "peel back the veil" sort of class. It's a good effect, and the fluff makes sense, but mechanically it seems very straightforward for the last skill in its tree.

The fluff for the Schisms tree ("Schisms manifest where Apostates conquer.") reminds me of Kill Six Billion Demon's transdimensional Conquering Kings. Demiurge might be another decent name for the class.

I like Chrono Grasp a lot, but the direct, linear pull on the other skills in the tree doesn't really scream "time travel" to me. I'd love to see more abilities that center around positioning enemies via time travel.

"Time waves" is very Doctor Who. Maybe "Prey on your enemies' timelines" or something similar?

I like Phase Assault. I was thinking that this guy really needed more ways to break the rules, and attacking at range is a good one. Chrono Fissure has a similar (synergizing?) effect. Maybe there could be a generic tree with Juxtapose about existing in more than one place simultaneously?

The half-turn casting time of Fold Reality is interesting to me. It's sort of like a cruder version of TW's instant casts.

Command the Stars references a "Schism target". Is that just for Singularity? None of the other Schism effects specifically target anyone. Or should this read something like "if an enemy is standing in your Schism, or suffering from Fade From Time, it will take this damage as well"?

Evermore is a cool version of Unstoppable, but seems like more of a Taleblade skill than a temporal one. It has shades of the Distorted Blade, which fits reasonably well and fits with a few other skills (what is it with paradox and evil weapons?). The last line also treats Evermore as a name, and references a max HP which doesn't appear elsewhere in the skill. Alternate fluff: "Your death disrupts time itself, letting you linger as a distorted echo. You retain all skills and attributes, and deal X% of your normal damage. Killing an enemy allow you to usurp their timeline and return to the normal flow of time at 50% health."

Chrono Massacre could be clearer in what constitutes a "simulated" version of your attacks. I'm also surprised it's physical and not temporal or temporal/physical.

Rift Strike seems like it could get pretty insane.

Tear the Timeline might want to be a sustain, given that it's potentially a big trade-off.

I was expecting there to be more skills involving the manipulation of anomalies. There's a little of that with Tear the Timeline, and a few effects that trigger or terminate with them, but nothing about twisting them or using them offensively. Maybe there could be an anomaly-managing skill based around forcing anomalies on enemies? Giving their abilities a failure chance, etc.? Or even just some skills based on recklessly twisting time to bring about anomalies that are moderately more likely to hurt your enemies.

malboro_urchin wrote:Edit: This class reminds me a lot of Cursed, with the whole undisciplined rampaging across timelines, and all the on-hit effects available to the player seem like they'd definitely allow for a very strong bump-heavy build

I had the same thought. I was thinking there was potential for some sort of paradox-focused version of the cursed aura, oppressing and disrupting your enemies and only occasionally throwing you into a howling void.

EDIT: It wouldn't give the same synergy with Evermore, but what if Infinitum Ascension was something like Lichform? The fluff really sounds like a fundamental change to the character, rather than a temporary (albeit sustained) buff. On the other hand, the effect is cool and powerful enough that it clearly wants to be a capstone.

malboro_urchin wrote:I think Pierce the Veil would be better off with temporal res pen instead of armor pen, especially since the talent right after it in that tree converts your damage to temporal. Also, I'm not too sure about how the mechanics of armor pen work, but isn't it far more significant with rogues/shadowblades/arcane blades who dual wield daggers and flurry regularly, rather than heavy-hitting 2h users like this class?

It is, but sometimes you run into rares/uniques that just have a billion armor and 100% armor hardiness, at which point it doesn't matter whether you're two-handed or a dual wielder, armor penetration is still a godsend either way.

Aeoch wrote:

malboro_urchin wrote:Why does Infinitum Ascension knock enemies away? It's nice that it dazes and damages without breaking daze, and it sort of remedies the knockback by giving Rip Through Time no cooldown, but I still don't see any real advantage in a melee class's ability creating distance between the character and enemies.

The idea with this is that you're using it in synergy with Phase Assault to teleport to your target, while giving you distance against the others while they are dazed and can't really do much. It also allows you to start casting Rip From Time on anything and everything to position them how you like during Infinitum Ascension. Also, when you use Infinitum Ascension from Evermore, it gives you breathing room coupled with the daze to recover from recently reviving after a tough down.

I'm not sure if you'll view this is legitimate reasoning, as I do understand where you're coming from with how you feel it is anti-synergistic, but I feel it justifies it. My thoughts are always subject to change, though!

I'm totally fine with it as long as there's solid reasoning backed by synergies, and it definitely looks like there are
I can imagine facing all the casters in Kryl-Feijan and Rip-Through-Time'ing each one to ensure they can't cast for a while.

Actually, Paradox-Gloom sounds really interesting.

Chrono Fissure doesn't feel very Chrono or Fissure to me, and giving it more range than adjacent would definitely go some way towards fixing that. Alternatively, maybe it could become a normal attack that creates short-lived autonomous copies of your weapon, possibly creating more copies if the initial hit crits (so it works nicely with Sunder Time)?

I don't see myself putting too many points into Fold Reality, especially since the class is already designed to make use of massive armor. I always feel threatened by elemental damage moreso than physical damage. Maybe Fold Reality could somehow mitigate more types of damage than just physical? Counterpoint: Energy is locked and learnable with a cat point, so this could get very strong, especially with this class's higher hp/level and built-in mitigation just from wearing heavier armor.

twas Brillig wrote:Would Echo Strike trigger off of the basic attacks triggered by Echo Strike? Or do those not count as direct damage? If so, that might need a rephrase.

Echo Strike may not trigger itself. Adding a little phrase to clarify that.

twas Brillig wrote:Chaotic Blow's fluff is hilarious, but a little out of place. I would love a berserker mathematician class, but this seems more like a "peel back the veil" sort of class. It's a good effect, and the fluff makes sense, but mechanically it seems very straightforward for the last skill in its tree.

It is mechanically quite straightforward, but I'm not entirely convinced that is a bad thing at the moment. I'll have to think it over.

twas Brillig wrote:I like Chrono Grasp a lot, but the direct, linear pull on the other skills in the tree doesn't really scream "time travel" to me. I'd love to see more abilities that center around positioning enemies via time travel.

True. I'll have to give that quite a bit of thought to make it coherent if they were to all be altered in a way to give a more mechanical sense of time travel.

twas Brillig wrote:"Time waves" is very Doctor Who. Maybe "Prey on your enemies' timelines" or something similar?

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the fluff. Its merely there to put a picture in the reader's mind; its all up to the player in the end to come to their own conclusions on what they see the class as.

twas Brillig wrote:I like Phase Assault. I was thinking that this guy really needed more ways to break the rules, and attacking at range is a good one. Chrono Fissure has a similar (synergizing?) effect. Maybe there could be a generic tree with Juxtapose about existing in more than one place simultaneously?

We're avoiding adding more generic trees, but if it is really compelling we will consider it!

twas Brillig wrote:Command the Stars references a "Schism target". Is that just for Singularity? None of the other Schism effects specifically target anyone. Or should this read something like "if an enemy is standing in your Schism, or suffering from Fade From Time, it will take this damage as well"?

Rewriting this skill to make it so instead of choosing a target to deal the extra Temporal damage to, it just deals the Temporal damage to the enemy affected by 1) Fade From Time, 2) Your Singularity Schism debuff, and 3) Any enemies standing within a Schism.

twas Brillig wrote:Evermore is a cool version of Unstoppable, but seems like more of a Taleblade skill than a temporal one. It has shades of the Distorted Blade, which fits reasonably well and fits with a few other skills (what is it with paradox and evil weapons?). The last line also treats Evermore as a name, and references a max HP which doesn't appear elsewhere in the skill. Alternate fluff: "Your death disrupts time itself, letting you linger as a distorted echo. You retain all skills and attributes, and deal X% of your normal damage. Killing an enemy allow you to usurp their timeline and return to the normal flow of time at 50% health."

You're right that Evermore fits Taleblade, not Temporal Apostate. I rewrote it as 'Written in the Stars', which still reflects the theme of Manifest Destiny, but without the weapon aesthetic--as you suggested, a sort of time shade! Thanks for the idea!

twas Brillig wrote:Chrono Massacre could be clearer in what constitutes a "simulated" version of your attacks. I'm also surprised it's physical and not temporal or temporal/physical.

I wrote that in on a whim, it causes more confusion that it remedies. I merely removed it.

twas Brillig wrote:Rift Strike seems like it could get pretty insane.

Agreed! Glad someone noticed. We'll see if its too much

twas Brillig wrote:Tear the Timeline might want to be a sustain, given that it's potentially a big trade-off.

You MAY be right, but theres also a thematic and mechanical loss when it becomes a sustain: you get to use it when its most effective for you. We're looking for a sense of consequence for ravaging the timelines in such a chaotic manner; to reach your incredibly powerful skills, you have to take Tear the Timeline, which benefits you, but can also be harsh. It echoes a sense of uncontrolled power. Hence, the category name Unstable Ascent--your power grows in leaps and bounds, but there are unavoidable consequences. Granted, there are rather easy ways to mitigate this downside, but the aesthetic persists.

Thank you so much for the thoughts and suggestions! I enjoyed reading through it all <3

malboro_urchin wrote:I don't see myself putting too many points into Fold Reality, especially since the class is already designed to make use of massive armor. I always feel threatened by elemental damage moreso than physical damage. Maybe Fold Reality could somehow mitigate more types of damage than just physical? Counterpoint: Energy is locked and learnable with a cat point, so this could get very strong, especially with this class's higher hp/level and built-in mitigation just from wearing heavier armor.

This is a really concrete concern. I'm going to change Fold Reality quite a bit.

Fold Reality no longer increases your flat armor nor your armor by a percentage. It retains the armor hardiness bonus, but converts a % of all damage you take to Temporal, and additionally (this is the gimmick) increases your Temporal resistance by a high amount while active. This not only directly reduces all damage you take as it converts it to Temporal and you take less Temporal, but all of the potential Temporal damage you are dealing to yourself is reduced when you activate Fold Reality as well, which will make it a lot more attractive to put points into to mitigate self-inflicted damage, like from Command the Stars and Tear the Timeline.