ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Stackable with flexible combat prodigy

Is that a good idea? Are there any class that can go that way? What if we add an escort that will give access to unarmed training?

I like it.

Easy enough to make it a hidden class-specific talent to test it out.

There's no current class that would be appropriate, but I could easily see a one-handed grapple-and-stab class which took advantage of it. It could get Grappling and Unarmed Discipline and Thuggery, but NOT Pugilism nor Unarmed Training.

To my knowledge, there's no class where this will be a good idea. It may be a usable idea, if you're going for a fun build and not a powerful one, but I can't think of any class that'd become more powerful with this instead of less.

A big part of the issue is skills-a lot of skills for more weapon oriented classes rely on you having a two-handed weapon, a shield, or dual-wielding, which you couldn't do with this. In addition, an offhand dagger is almost certainly going to be more powerful than your punch and attacks every time, not just 40% of the time.

Beserker, Arcane Blade, and Mindslayer are the only classes that might become more powerful through this. It's worth a shot, if nothing else.

Good luck on this kind of build, Strongpoint.

Red wrote: A big part of the issue is skills-a lot of skills for more weapon oriented classes rely on you having a two-handed weapon, a shield, or dual-wielding, which you couldn't do with this.

Before thinking about skills we need a balanced bash attack with no skills taken in account

In addition, an offhand dagger is almost certainly going to be more powerful than your punch and attacks every time, not just 40% of the time.

I'd love to see some math. I am sure it is not as one-sided as you think. 50%ed dagger is quite weak.

Beserker, Arcane Blade, and Mindslayer are the only classes that might become more powerful through this. It's worth a shot, if nothing else.

My choice would be Cursed

More viable choices = neat. Even if it sucks it would be cool and that alone would justify its inclusion.

Maybe flexible combat should give some additional bonus to weapon+empty slot combo? It fits idea of being flexible.

I didn't think Cursed, since they've got Tier 4 abilities that all benefit a lot from sword and board, two handed, or dual wielding. Though if I recall correctly, they don't require those weapon sets, so that actually makes a lot of sense. Smart.

For daggers, I was thinking of various artifact daggers that have useful procs. Mercy, I think, deals a bunch of extra damage to targets as they get lower on health, which would be a big bonus against bosses, and it would hit plenty since Combat Accuracy is not weapon specific. That being said, if unarmed damage is higher than I think (especially if you get the same procs a Brawler gets) or daggers less useful, then I'm just plain wrong. I was going off what seemed right to me, so if the numbers call me a liar, a liar I was for saying that.

Using the game as-is, you can't ignore skills. I'm sure there's a build or two out there that use bumps entirely out there for damage, but unless that's the way you want to go, you'll have to use skills. (Which helps your thoughts on using Cursed make more sense.) If you're talking about a new class or ability sets based on this, like Strongpoint's idea to modify Flexible Combat, I'd be all over that. More classes, more abilities, more choices in general-those are the kind of things that make this game fun.

Strongpoint wrote:I am sure it is not as one-sided as you think. 50%ed dagger is quite weak.

Yeah. And glove procs are quite strong.

donkatsu wrote:More viable choices = neat. Even if it sucks it would be cool and that alone would justify its inclusion.

Agree.

Personally I think this would work best with an entire new class. Just my $0.02 though, and I'm certainly no expert.

A Duelist class could be interesting, as could a class similar to Arcane Blade but with the focus on leaving the off-hand open for spellcasting and other neat tricks.

New Commando feature gogogo.

KaynDarks
I prefer more ways to play existing classes (even if suboptimal) to a new class, not that new class build around some unorthodox game mechanics (like skirmisher that grew from sling+shield builds) is a bad thing

Besides that one weapon + free slot stuff can work with a number of classes. All that needed is just one tree that handles such weapon choice. It may be enough to make it viable for many classes should skills work

Imagine a tree that allows you to make a brawler without investing a single point in pugulism? (finishing moves may or may not work)

Imagine a tree that allows you to play rogue in a different way.

Imagine a berserker without two hander.

First thoughts on an Offhand (needs a btter name) category:

Skill 1:
Passive that increases the chance of making the unarmed attack or makes it always happen at level 1. Also allows you to see glove/gauntlet combat stats and gives you increases in damage. Probably use the numbers from Unarmed Mastery, but without the natural Brawler physical power and attack speed.

Skill 2:
Grabs the enemy for low damage and pulls them close for an autocrit with your weapon if the first hits.

Skill 3:
Low-regular damage triple hit, for extra procs.

Skill 4:
High cost sustain with per turn drain. Adds a chance to disarm to every unarmed strike.

Did I understand this correctly? Suggestion is about giving everyone Flexible Combat prodigy for just keeping one hand empty?

...

This entire time, I thought this was something that already existed. I thought this was just something in the code that no one talked about because no build used it.

It's a suggestion. *Facepalm*

Faeryan, it's only if you leave a hand empty. So you can't dual-wield, use shields, or use two-handed weapons with it. Flexible Combat is a 60% chance every time you hit in melee, regardless of what you're holding.