ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

So i had a whole (salty) post written about how i think the grand corruptor is too strong, however, i dont think i was all that to the point. What i really want, is to start a discussion about this guy, and hear you guys opinion.
So, i feel that he is decidedly too strong, however, classes that can kill him in very few turns with spells, or simply kill him from afar, dont really suffer under this, while classes that rely on melee hits or sustained damage, need very specific tools to be successful, much more so than vs the weirdling beast or any other boss in the game for that matter, or they are assuredly toast.
The primary problem imo is the cascade of 300+ damage crits he pours on you, few classes can kill him in a race for damage, and no one can survive his spells for any meaningful duration (that is, long enough to kill him with mediocre damage).

Anyway, my point is that he is essentially like certain other encounters that need specific tools to beat (urkis, weirdling beast), however he is so strong that if you dont have those tools, you can not realistically beat him, period, unlike any other encounter in the game.

Is this okay? On principle i am inclined to say yes, however since there are no other enemies designed by that same philosophy, my answer would be no, he is simply too hard.
I feel about him like i felt about meeting a lvl 38 elite patchwork troll in bills hideout at level 7, if that is any indication.

Edit: not sure if this discussion still, if it ever did, belongs in the ideas forum, the spoilers discussion forum might be a better place, if someone wants to move it.

As a side area boss, I think its fine.

My experiences against him have varied from being absolutely destroyed (brawler, before rework) to killing him in a handful of turns (necromancers).
I completely agree he's powerful - I never attempt to kill him before Dreadfell, and often leave him until after returning from the East - but I think there is no point in nerfing him. Taking the challenge out of him like what happened to Shardskin wouldn't be what I'd recommend.
He is *completely* optional, and when you take him on is entirely based on your character. I'm of the strong opinion that necromancers deserve to rule the world with their might, so I'm willing to burn Zigur with his help just after I finish killing a certain vampire. For melee characters, I'm very wary of the DoT from Fearscape and my inability to flee the battle. Therefore, I make sure I have good fire resistance, blight resistance, good see invisible, and a large health pool (with ways of refilling it, of course).

Is this OK? I think so. Perhaps he could actually stand to get some buffs to his resistances and spell save to balance him out against mages

Hmh yeah, i guess as a side boss he is within reason, depending on when you take him on. I think i am somewhat colored by the fact that when i was new to the game, i took every advantage i could, and always seeded the area at level 10, so for a while i got used to easily killing him immediately after dreadfell, which has gotten me into the habit of considering him "mandatory" in the same sense as the elven ruins or ruined dungeon. The thing is, the elven ruins and ruined dungeon are also optional, at least there arent quests involving them, however they are not even in the same league as the grand corruptor, not even close.

Anyway, i now agree, he doesnt need a change, and certainly not a nerf, but i would like to see some change in the way the encounter is handled. For instance, i have completed the game a few times, yet i still dont really know how "see stealth" and "see invisible" works, or how fighting invisible enemies work preciesly, and thats because there is only one enemy where invisibility is a real problem - the grand corruptor, at least on normal. Personally, i would like to see his invisibility and other active defenses removed (let him keep bone armor), and his damage as well as his resistances buffed, that would make him more straight forward and less of a multiple trick pony.

im off to bed for now, thanks for the input guys!

While the Grand Corrupter is a side boss, I wonder if he is a little bit too much of a newbie death trap. Same goes for Celia in the Last Hope Graveyard, the Unknown Tunnels, or the Dark Crypt.

I realize that death traps are a part of the nature of Roguelike games, but I wonder if there should be more distinctive labels found before getting into really dangerous instances - or at least giving a distinctive label that the player is now 'in' a dangerous instance (see Room of Death).

Tales of Maj'Eyal is already a very difficult Roguelike due to its steep learning curve and distinctive differences from other Roguelikes. It might be time to start making sure that warning information is somewhat abundantly clear for the player before they enter a life and death situation with their character. This may help edge new players into the game more.

I wouldn't say this game has a steep learning curve.
For example, I've never had to look at a guide or wiki to find any critical information.
There are a few things that could be communicated better, but that always happens when you make something different.

I also wouldn't classify the Grand Corruptor as a newbie trap, since unlike Celia/Unknown Tunnels/Dark Crypt, there is an area before the Grand Corruptor which gives you a good warning about what is to come.
(You could say that the Unknown Tunnels are also a good warning for what the Dark Crypt would be like as well.)

It's more annoying now vile life exists and there's more incentive to go to spellblaze.

HousePet wrote:there is an area before the Grand Corruptor which gives you a good warning about what is to come.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here. And unknown tunnels does the opposite of prepare you for dark crypt; it makes you think this kind of encounter isn't so hard and has immense reward.

The Grand Corruptor is on the second level of Mark of the Spellblaze, so you have the whole of the first area to realise that fire and blight spellcasters are around.

The Assassin Lord can be quite hard for a newbie, especially if they aren't over level 10 before they find it (which experienced players are). And the reward is 8 gp for a newbie. Hardly immense.

If every Elven Corrupter enemy (and maybe the Blood Mages and Dark Cultists) in Spellblaze was casting Fearscape on you and maybe was healing in Fearscape then I could partially agree that the player might understand that a serious threat could be found at the boss if he did the same - and maybe could pose a serious issue if the player was unable to outdamage him or outlast him. However, the spellcasters don't come anywhere notably close to sort of describing just how threatening the Grand Corrupter will be.

In regards to the Dark Crypt, the player really gets no warning that they are going to be entering an instance where the most threatening thing about the instance is quite literally the dungeon layout. The Dark Crypt is a rather odd instance in that simply getting a bad roll on the RNG can result in disastrous consequences; a player could end up in a big open area full of enemies on a bad draw.

As a note, another instance comes to mind where they is also an issue - Ruins of Telmur. The player is very well in a situation where they can't really escape the dungeon (notably because there is no other dungeon to level in and they can't get back to the Far East) and may also wind up in a situation where the RNG may give the player an extremely difficult situation.

Just to throw this in there, but for certain characters the area becomes a lot less optional due to the addition of Vile Life, which can also drive the person to try to tackle the area even earlier.

Davion Fuxa wrote:If every Elven Corrupter enemy (and maybe the Blood Mages and Dark Cultists) in Spellblaze was casting Fearscape on you and maybe was healing in Fearscape then I could partially agree that the player might understand that a serious threat could be found at the boss if he did the same - and maybe could pose a serious issue if the player was unable to outdamage him or outlast him. However, the spellcasters don't come anywhere notably close to sort of describing just how threatening the Grand Corrupter will be.

That is like saying that you wouldn't expect Urkis to use Hurricane.

Spell/Storm can certainly catch a player offguard but in the end it is all Lightning Based talents. If the player cued in that prepping Lightning Resistance would help them out then it will lessen the impact Urkis will have.

There isn't any warning to a player in regards to Corrupter/Shadowflame. Up to the point of meeting the Grand Corrupter, none of the other Rhaloran Elves have been dishing out Fire Damage and the player may very well never experienced a Corrupter enemy with Fearscape beforehand - which notably will lock the player into combat from which he can't escape.

It is of course fine for an enemy to have a few tricks up their sleeves, but the Grand Corrupter comes off like the old Shardskin - all of a sudden you are meeting an enemy that is completely a step above everything.

The Cultists do use Flame of Urh'rok, and there are lava pits and Faeros.
So there are hints about what might be ahead.

Lava in the Mark of the Spellblaze along with the Lightning and Fire Elementals is more of an indication that the player is running around in a hostile environment. Flame of Urk'rok is a talent that a player may not even notice and isn't any real indication of what the player is in for - unless the player goes to the Wiki, which assumes they know what they are looking for as warning.

Neither of the above can really be seen as recognizable hints because they don't really nudge the player into expecting anything.

I think that the Mark of the Spellblaze is simply part of a larger problem: the fact that newcomers to the game get very little guidance as to what's safe to do at which level. Once you've done it once, you pretty much know what to expect and can plan accordingly.