ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Since I didn't see any other good suggestions in my previous thread, and wanting to keep the focus here as tight as possible, here's a new thread.

My idea for an "Ogre Magi-ish" race:

The general idea is that the trade-off is that we have a race that trades away subtlety for brute power.

Possible Names: Doublings, Ogremen, Larger (to go with Higher), Pseudotrolls, Half-Trolls (although they bear no relation to Trolls), Ogres, Oni.

My initial proposed statline is fairly straightforward:
+2 STR, -1 DEX, +2 CON
+2 MAG, 0 WIL, 0 CUN
+1 Size Category (?)
(Alternately, +1 WIL, -1 CUN? Or maybe +3 STR, -2 DEX, +3 (MAG or CON?)?)
XP Penalty: ??? (Depends on what comes out of this discussion, but I suspect +20% or +25%)

My concept for the racial skills are simple, if incomplete:
Level 1: An active that grants a MAG/CON (whichever is greater) scaling shield (for Zigur and anti-magic purposes, does not count as magic). Takes a turn. (Alternately, an instant heal to the Higher's regeneration)
Level 8: A passive direct boost to Physical, Mind, and Spell Power (but not damage), on par with the Weapon Masteries.
Level 16 & 24: Something that also favors brute, direct force.

Possible Lore:
1. An offshoot of the same process that created the Higher, the Conclave sought to make a race of men who could go toe to toe with Trolls and Giants. The resulting race was not nearly as strong as originally desired, but made up for it with a strong talent for magic. During the Spellhunt, they were frequent targets, but since many avoided magic, were among the founders of Zigur, and were much stronger and more durable then any race but dwarves, the result was a marginalized, but still fairly common, race.
2. A race, originally from the East, that had a longstanding Alliance with the Shalor, sufficient that when the Spellblaze occurred, the somewhat large population of Ogres living nearby were allowed to take shelter in Elvala.

Anybody have any comments on what I have so far? Which of the several alternatives I have so far works the best?

Thanks
Luc "In The Alternate" French

I love me some Ogres, so some thoughts:

I came from DCSS before coming to this game, and there they had merged their Ogre/Ogre-Magi races. I think that sort of concept might be a good one to consider looking into here as well where the aspects here could allow Ogre's to be able to mix well with more 'hybrid' backgrounds like Arcane Blades.

In regards to stats and Experience Penalty, Cunning and Willpower could be adjusted to have a negative modifier in favor of a lower Experience Penalty. I could also see Strength, Magic, or Constitution getting a minor drop as well (keep them positive values, but not necessarily up to +2). Overall the sort of number scheme looks good - Constitution and Magic being somewhat higher, Strength also being higher, everything being lower.

They could perhaps be larger in size then other Races.

For Racials, I wonder if the Ogre could perhaps be more inclined towards Strength rather then Constitution. We already have the Ghouls and Dwarves having a more 'Constitution' background with their Racial Setups, but no Race as of yet is really based just on Strength - Ghouls and Skeletons get increased Strength but that's about it, none of their Racials are 'powered' by Strength.

On Lore, I think it would be better to keep them somewhat separate. They don't need to be despised like in other games but that could be a theme to follow with them if we make them friendly with the Shalore. Maybe they could also be a Race that starts in the Far East when choosing Sun Paladins or Anorithils as well.

Davion says a good thing here. We have Str/Will races but no Str/Mag race yet.

Also no Str/Cun race.

Ogre-Magi (perhaps "Oni") being +Str/Mag/Cun would be interesting for a variety of classes.

That could be interesting. Maybe make their first racial talent be a damage shield/instant heal that scales with Cunning or Magic (whichever is higher). Alternatively, maybe that heal could be a 'resource' heal - you activate the talent and it restores whatever resources you might be using.

As a note, I don't necessarily think that the Racial Talents have to be 'Brute' or 'Direct Force' related either. I could see perhaps a 'Tool, Trinket, or Charm & Inscriptions' Talent being a very good fit for Ogres as a Racial. Maybe instead of reducing cooldown on items it could potentially do something else - like reduce power costs on item usage, and increase the power on item abilities or Inscription.

So, something like:

+3 Str / +3 Mag / +3 Cun
-3 Dex / -3 Will

Racial Talents:

Ogric Prowess
+1 Str / +1 Mag / +1 Cun per talent level.
Negate 8% crit damage per talent level.
At level 5, gain +1 size category.

Scar-Scripted Flesh
Once per turn, when you crit with a spell or attack, you have a 10-50% chance to reduce the cooldown of one rune or infusion by 1. Each level of this talent also reduces the duration of runic saturation and infusion saturation by 1.

Thunderborn
Due to familiarity with trolls and giants, you gain 10-30% resistance to Stun, Confusion, and Lightning damage.

Aftershock Escalation
Every time you make a save, you gain +1-5 to your Accuracy, Mindpower, Physpower and Spellpower. This bonus lasts for 4-12 turns. Each time you make a save, you renew the effect duration, and the bonus will stack up to a maximum of 10-100.

For the moment, given Doctornull's mostly good suggestions for mechanics[1], we need a lore setup. Are these Ogres originally from the East, or were they made by the Conclave? Or something else?

[1] Post on that forthcoming. Might take a while, though.

Thanks
Luc "Origins" French

Doctornull wrote:So, something like:

+3 Str / +3 Mag / +3 Cun
-3 Dex / -3 Will

Racial Talents:

Ogric Prowess
+1 Str / +1 Mag / +1 Cun per talent level.
Negate 8% crit damage per talent level.
At level 5, gain +1 size category.

My chief problem here is that this doesn't match the math of the other non-undead races. All the current living races have a total net statline of +4-6 (with the +4s getting secondary bonuses), except Yeeks (who are there as a "hard mode") and Cornacs (who get a bonus that's almost impossible to calculate in value), and lack a racial stat boost. I'd like to keep the undead 'special' in this respect.

Maybe the statline should be:
+3 STR, -2 DEX, +1 CON
+2 MAG, -1 WIL, +2 CUN

Scar-Scripted Flesh
Once per turn, when you crit with a spell or attack, you have a 10-50% chance to reduce the cooldown of one rune or infusion by 1. Each level of this talent also reduces the duration of runic saturation and infusion saturation by 1.

Thunderborn
Due to familiarity with trolls and giants, you gain 10-30% resistance to Stun, Confusion, and Lightning damage.

Aftershock Escalation
Every time you make a save, you gain +1-5 to your Accuracy, Mindpower, Physpower and Spellpower. This bonus lasts for 4-12 turns. Each time you make a save, you renew the effect duration, and the bonus will stack up to a maximum of 10-100.

Further, every non-undead race has two passives bracketed by two actives. I'd like to keep the pattern.

Maybe:

L1: An instant heal. Scales with the higher of CUN or CON.
L8: Scar-Scripted Flesh
L16: Thunderborn.
L24: A short boost to all the Power stats (including Critical Multiplier, but not Crit Chance), scaling with Talent level and the higher of STR or MAG.

Thanks
Luc "Told You It'd Take A While" French

I guess I should start from the Lore, since practically everything that will follow should partially derive from it:

• Ogre's find their origins from the Mountains on the outskirts of Shaloran lands. For the most part the Ogres were isolated from the other races, though sometimes they conducted trade with the neighboring Shaloran or providing some muscle to more laborious endeavors. In exchange for their services with the Shaloran, the Ogres learned some inclination in Magic and gained some proficiency with Runes; which they learned the value of greatly.
  
  The potentially usefulness of using Ogre's as 'slaves' drew the notice of nearby Halflings. The Ogre's had no real concept in war or military organization and they lacked any real weapons or armor to defend themselves with. Through clever use of the Runes and Magic along with knowledge of their home terrain the Ogre's were able to isolate the Halflings from each other and force them to fight the Ogre's one on one. However, a Halflings Prowess for Battle can't be underestimated and eventually the Ogre's were giving more and more ground to the better trained and equipped Halflings. Due to the their isolation, they were on their own without any means of getting assistance; and many Ogre's thought of potentially surrendering.
  
  Luckily for the Ogre's, the Shaloran Elves did notice the Halflings actions and were none to happy. They raised an army and attacked the Halfling prison camps rescuing captured Ogre's from impending Slavery. Through leadership provided by the Shaloran, they were able to provide guidance that allowed the Ogre's to mount more credible attacks against the Halflings while the Shaloran Army held off Halfling Reinforcements. Slowly the Ogre's reclaimed their land and finally drove back the Halflings. The joint military endeavor further strengthened the relationship between the Ogre's and the Shaloran, eventually leading to a long alliance treaty between the two which exists to this day.
  
  After the battle with the Halflings, the Ogre's realized that should the Halflings ever come back that they would need to better prepare themselves, which led to them breaking their isolation with the rest of the world. Meeting with many of the Human Kingdoms, they made agreements where they served as mercenaries for many of their armies, in return receiving Martial Training and Equipment. They also traded somewhat with the Dwarves as well with whatever spoils they would acquire from their victories, and some also interacted with the Thaloran where their knowledge in use of Runes was further supplemented with the use of Infusions. Throughout all this, it was common that more Ogre's would be away from their home lands then inhabit them.
  
  Soon however, the time came as the Orcs descending on all the Races; the Ogre's of course fighting them as mercenaries and earning their ire of the Orcs just as much as that of any of the other races. With the danger the Orcs poised, the Shaloran Elves would turn to the Sher'tul ruins, and the eventual events leading up to the Spellblaze. The Ogre's were totally unprepared for the ensuring chaos and the results were catastrophic as their lands and those Ogre's inhabiting them were lost. The only blessing was that due to the mercenary lifestyle that many Ogre's had adopted, only about a third of their race was wiped out from the initial wave of destruction - though this included many families and young Ogres.
  
  While the Ogre's realized that it was magic that was the cause of the loss of their homes and children, they also understood that Magic was practically the only reason they hadn't been enslaved by the Halflings so long ago. This led to them holding form in their support of magic, and this support led to them be targets from the magic hating mobs that would soon follow. While Ogre's weren't responsible for the Spellblaze, the other races treated them with almost equal hatred as that experienced by the Shaloran. The Shalore Elves knowing that their actions were the cause of all the Ogre's misfortune let and surviving Ogre's take refuge in Elvala, and most surviving Ogre's have lived in Shaloran lands to this day.
  
  For the most part, the Ogre's have lived in peace with the Shalore Elves, but the relations have been somewhat strained as Ogre's do not deny or are keen to hide their use of Magic like the Shaloran. Somewhat fearing the potential problems with being isoloted as well from past troubles with the Halflings, many Ogre's were uneasy from their separation with the rest of the world. Additionally, Allegiances would come to be tested with the rise of the Rhaloran Faction. While the Ogre's have mostly avoided taking sides, some have been more then eagar to join the Rhaloran cause due to their greater openness with magic.

I'll probably comment on Doctornull's blueprint later.

Edit: Proofread my lore a bit.

An alternative version of the lore, just because I want them to have an in-lore reason to be Sun Paladins:

Originally hailing from an unknown continent, the Ogres were highly successful sailor-merchants, trading from port to port. They had large enclaves in various cities, the most notable and largest in Maj'Eyal being near Elvala (unmentioned in the new Lore chapter for the Races of is that there is also a enclave near the Gates of Morning, who are allied with them against the Orcs). When the Spellblaze struck, the Ogres petitioned for, and received, protection from the Shaloran masters of that city.

In more current politics, Ogres can be found as wandering traders in all the cities of Maj'Eyal, along with a few mercenaries among just about all the fighting forces (there are even a few in the service of Zigur). Their population remains surprisingly low, due to a mixture of a low birthrate (due to extended lifespans), a low starting population, and cultural population controls that have existed since they first arrived in Maj'Eyal. The Rhaloran have recruited a few, but as Ogres are few in number compared to Shaloran, don't expect to see one.

Thanks
Luc "Less Lore To Edit This Way" French

Technically they could start in the Gates of Morning with the Lore I presented. Depending on the time frame for when Halflings were going around trying to enslave everyone, they could have traveled with the Humans over to the Far East. Of course, the Humans might have crossed over very early before Halflings were trying to make Slaves of other Races.

I don't see it being much of an issue though if Ogre's can't start as Sun Paladins in the Far East however. Halflings, Dwarves, Skeletons, Ghouls, and Yeeks start in the Main Continent in their respective dungeons.

Anyhow, time to comment on Doctornull's blueprint:

On Stats

Stat structure looks fairly good with Strength ~ Magic ~ Cunning > Constitution ~ Dexterity ~ Willpower. We don't have any races that have positive modifiers in both Strength and Cunning, and throwing in Magic gives players access to another good candidate for Arcane uses.

As a note though, I don't think the Ogre's should start with a higher Magic Stat then the Shaloran. I can see them having an equal stat to them or just +1, but it shouldn't be +3 or more.

From my initial assessment, I figure I should also note a Race that I had overlooked that uses Constitution for powering Racials as well - Orcs. Orcs have their capstone Racial Talent powered by Constitution. Along with Dwarves and Ghouls, that means that there are three Races in game that have Racials that tie into the Constitution Stat. Additionally, Halflings and Thalore have positive Constitution Stat Modifiers.

I don't think it is bad that Ogre's get a positive Constitution stat, but I think the Racial Talents should forgo tying into them in favor or Strength, Magic, and/or Cunning. Additionally, it might be interesting to give them a negative Constitution stat, since only Yeeks currently have one in game and it would tie into Ogre's being less resistant and defensive; for all that extra hitpoints it would get. Also of note is that no Races have any real serious detriment to Willpower outside of Ghouls, so that might be a staple for Ogre's So maybe as another sort of banter on Stats:

• +3 Strength
  -1 Dexterity
  0 Constitution
  +2 Magic
  -2 Willpower
  +2 Cunning
  
  Ogre's are 'Big' Enemies
  Ogre's Receive +13 Hitpoints per Level
  Ogre's Receive a +30% Experience Penalty

This gives Ogre's a net positive gain in stats of +4. However, they also have the advantage that their initial larger size gives them the bonus of being 'Big' from the start and the highest bonus outside any race but Ghouls in terms of the Hitpoints they gain per level. To slightly balance out the prospect of all that extra hitpoints they are going to get, the Experience Penalty sits at +30% - which is actually between that of the Thaloran and the Dwarves/Shaloran Experience Penalties. They also pair up with Dwarves in that they have negative modifiers in not 1 but 2 stats; though unlike Dwarves their stats aren't as polarized.

The Stat breakdown of Strength > Magic = Cunning > Constitution ~ Dexterity > Willpower is meant to sort of run in line with the Lore plot I wrote - Willpower being the lowest to symbolize that they would rather be 'Slaves' then be killed. Dexterity was also bumped up over Willpower due to Dwarves having a -2 Dexterity Modifier as well.

On Racial Talents

I don't think there is any problem with breaking the Racial mode for Talents in regards to their setup, but I'm not too keen on Ogre Prowess and Aftershock Escalation for other reasons:

• -'Ogre Prowess' would boost their core stats permanently, which would mean they would essentially get a better stat in Magic - again, I don't think this should be higher then on the Shaloran.
  -In regards to 'Aftershock Escalation', making it trigger off Save Checks means the player has extremely limited control on when and where it would happen. Similar Racial Talents like 'Secret of the Eternals' and 'Stoneskin' have built in controls that can let a player somewhat control instances of when the talent effect would trigger. This one lacks any means of that.
  -Additionally, outside of Scar-Scripted Flesh which indirectly runs off Cunning, none of the stats really scale with a stat.

As a note though, Orcs have a Racial Talent called 'Pride of the Orcs' that acts as 'and Instant Heal'. However, as stated before, a resource heal might be nice - which is thematically different from a status curing hitpoint heal. I also wonder if having a talent that boosts offensive stats really has much room either since the Thaloran 'Wrath of the Wood's and Halfling 'Luck of the Littlefolk' are already quite offensively oriented.

L1 Racial Talent: Tactical Reserves
Active (50 - 4 * talent_level Cooldown)

Dig down within ones Tactical Reserves to replenish ones active Talent Resources.
Replenishes 'X' Air, Equilibrium, Hate, Mana, Negative Energy, Positive Energy, Paradox, Psi, Stamina, and Vim. The Effects Scale with Cunning.

L8 Racial Talent: Scar-Scripted Flesh
Passive

Does as Doctornull stated - though I would potentially include Mind Criticals as well.

L16 Racial Talent: Thunderborn
Passive

Does as Doctornull stated, but the the Lightning Damage scales with Strength or Magic, whichever is higher.

L24 Racial Talent: Inscription Masters
Active (50 - 4 * talent_level Cooldown)

Ogre's are masters of Inscription usage, and can use them to better effect then other races. When this talent is activated, it last 5 turns and provides the following:

Talent Level 1/5 - Inscriptions gain #% Extra Power for Damage, Status Power, Healing, etc; scaling with Strength or Magic - whichever is higher
Talent Level 2/5 - Inscriptions gain #% Damage Penetration; scaling with Cunning
Talent Level 3/5 - Inscriptions that remove detrimental effects will remove one additional effect -or- All Inscription use will remove a random detrimental effect
Talent Level 4/5 - Inscriptions that run off a Stat can substitute the Cunning stat if it is higher
Talent Level 5/5 - Inscriptions Durations last an extra turn (both on effects like Regeneration and Shielding Runes buff Duration or Insidious Poison and Offensive Runes Debuff Duration)

Some additional ideas that could also be included or swapped with the above:

Can use Runes While Silence -and/or- Inscriptions Always Get Used Regardless of Chance of Failure (such as from Confusion)
Inscription Usage Restores Resources

On Potential Enemies

Having a few Ogre Enemies incorporated into the game might be interesting. In the the Rhaloran Camp, these could be rather basic 'Ogre Mauler' which could replace one of the Elven Guard type enemies. Getting to the Spellblaze or Dark Crypt, perhaps we could have an elite 'Ogre Runemaster' which specializes in using several Runes for combat joining in to do battle. Since Ogre's are also good Strength/Magic Characters, it might make sense to have some as Arcane Blades as enemies too in either area.

Alternatively, having an Ogre 'Boss' enemy in the Rhaloran Camp might be an idea as an alternate to the Inquisitor. While the Inquisitor Lore may or may not be present, perhaps an the 'Ogre Quartermaster' could take her place; with a Lore bit dropped at the end of the fight that is tailored to preparations in invading Elvala (As a prelude in regards to how the Grand Corrupter takes up residence in Elvala when players side with him to destroy Zigur in game).

On Starting Inscriptions

If tied in with Shaloran Lore and society, they could start with the standard Rune Inscription setup as opposed to Infusions.

boooo you guys need to go insane on the lore.

Make the Ogre's former yeeks. The halflings, being the messed up little folk that they are, did the experiments on Yeek's that we all love.

Ogres, or, for a better name Yogres (Former yeek!) were created from their experiements. They knew Yeek had powerful minds and wanted to see if they could unlock that for Magic as well for their own use (halflings...), but instead created these monstrous, hideous brutes. Their mindpower is pretty much gone because their brains were fried with the magic being infused. It left them with these hulking monstrosities with innate magical powers. Patchwork hair. Ugly things.

I like sradac's lore!

darkgod wrote:I like sradac's lore!

I might not have fancy big descriptive words and full sentences, but I have good vision. I see them in my head so thats what counts!

Anyone played DarkSouls 2? Remember those damn half dragon experiments in the bottom of Sinner's Rise and in the cages just before the Dragon Aerie? I'm picturing something like that. Granted, not THAT monstrous because these are just Yeeks infused with Magic that went terribly, terribly wrong and not people trying to be merged with Dragon souls.

Certainly creative, but first think that comes to my mind is a Yeti or Sasquatch since Yeeks are Furry. Could technically also shove them in with the Yeek starting town since they would be part of the 'Yeek' Meta-race and maybe the Halflings sent them through just as much as regular Yeeks.

However, could probably be room for both - As Doctornull said, we don't got a Strength/Magic Race or a Strength/Cunning Race. There is certainly room for both.

Well I just meant from a lore perspective. Maybe I wasn't descriptive enough. Im pretty sure I wasnt

By patchwork hair I meant that while they used to be furry, friendly Yeeks, the magic mutation has sent them to becomming almost-bald and just have random patches of hair on their body.

And my vision can definitely fit Str / Mag since that's what I envisioned. From those magic mutations they grew into hulking brutes, their brain is gone, but they are boiling over with magic inside.

Here's kind of something like what I was envisioning but again, less monstrous