ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14B1 ... X-pc/edit#

Feel free to leave comments here or at the part of the document you are interested in, in Google Docs.

This is a first public draft of the next set of Berserker changes I would like to see happen. I have a feeling I will have a much harder time getting these past DarkGod though than the last set, so I plan to release this as an Addon initially and for public testing purposes to see if we can get it in good enough shape for a real release, possibly as an entirely new class called something else if necessary.

What Changes?
Everything. No, really. Nothing is left untouched, but for a variety of different reasons. A lot of this is just gut feeling I'm going on for now, and needs tested to be sure the changes are GOOD changes. That comes after code, which I'm going to write myself this time around. There will be a new topic when the Addon version is available for public testing. I just finished this document 5 minutes ago, so that will be a while!

The biggest thing is that all of the old talent categories are being ripped out entirely, and some things from them are being cherry picked to survive in new categories. This new Berserker is a much more unique class and experience who does not share their awesome categories with others! Except for 2H Assault, which is too awesome to keep to itself. Yes that is a contradiction. DEAL WITH IT

BUT WHY?
To make a more cohesive new player experience. For example, this is supposed to be a newbie friendly class, but there are weird things in some older talents such as requiring Strength to unlock, but scaling with Dexterity only.

To make it more obvious how new players should allocate stat points. Now there is a Constitution tree available from level 1, featuring 4 defensive oriented talents. Want to get tougher? Here is your neon lit sign guiding you to surviving longer in fights.

To get to the core of being a Berserker faster. Bloodbath is really the most defining Berserker skill. Unstoppable is great, but of course more situational and trickier to use right. I have wanted to get newer Berserkers into the Bloodthirst tree from the very beginning, way back when I actually did release a Berserker modifying Addon on Steam months ago. Now I have split Bloodthirst from Unstoppable so that new players can take Bloodbath, and still have to spend a category point to get Unstoppable, along with some revised and new other talents.

To play with some lore! Unstoppable and Shattering Shout are Garkul specialties in the lore, so now I'm retconning Berserker to include reference to Garkul as an inspirational supreme warrior. Also buffing Unstoppable to last until you kill 10,000 Halflings (just kidding, maybe?!).

To make Stamina management more active. Bloodbath is losing the Stamina regen factor because it just makes Stamina management a no-brainer aspect of play. I thought Relentless Fury might do that, but I was mistaken because by the time I was level 40 I could not get my Stamina low enough to even activate Relentless Fury even after using Unstoppable and Warshout. Instead there is now a special attack that restores Stamina in addition to Relentless Fury, making Stamina management still pretty easy, but slightly more of a consideration than not a consideration at all.

I'm Probably Forgetting Something
This time around I have more experience under my belt, having defeated the Orc Prides! The last half of the game was such a slog though that I'm not going to do it again on a Berserker until I finish making these changes. Oh right, my point was that I did that this weekend, and in an insane flurry of creative activity managed to create this new Berserkergeddon outline as well. It is new, it is rough, it is going to need lots of testing and your comments are welcome at all stages. Many changes have already been made thanks to NemesisZeru, edge, SageAcrin, and other people in IRC who think of things I don't!

I notice a couple of details from the Barbarian addon. Great stuff.

But first I'm going to finish my Barbarian run. The idea to run about with two 1H weapons just appeals to me

Jurriaan wrote:I notice a couple of details from the Barbarian addon. Great stuff.

But first I'm going to finish my Barbarian run. The idea to run about with two 1H weapons just appeals to me

I've never actually looked at the Barbarian addon, just was told it exists this weekend. I guess maybe Barbarian shouldn't be the name I offer up for this if DarkGod won't accept it as a Berserker replacement.

For example, the Barbarian addon has Charge instead of Rush. I didn't think that was a coincidence.

Jurriaan wrote:For example, the Barbarian addon has Charge instead of Rush. I didn't think that was a coincidence.

Really? Heh! No, I didn't know that. Does theirs also Pin instead of Daze? @_@

A suggestion for Unstoppable:

The duration should be only 2 or 3 turns. HOWEVER, every time you kill an opponent while under the effect, the duration is extended by X turns.

Parcae2 wrote:A suggestion for Unstoppable:
The duration should be only 2 or 3 turns. HOWEVER, every time you kill an opponent while under the effect, the duration is extended by X turns.

I've mulled that over in my head a lot, and the problem with it is that while I DO NOT LIKE it being used as an escape skill, I do not think I'll ever get removing that aspect of it past DarkGod. He did agree with me once that lowering the max to 5 was not outside the realm of possibility, though. Not sure why that didn't go into 1.2, possibly because it would have necessitated other changes as well like the ones in my document and he just didn't have time to design them.

Whoa that's some really thorough change. The class has so many defense/offense options that it's extremely hard to predict how they may stack lategame. Like some random rare having 190% resist all because of talent level 15 and 970 constitution or removing all your sustains without even making a save. Overall I don't mind such thorough rework of a berserker, just think carefully that while you design class mostly for normal if random bone giant may accidentally get 190% resist all on nightmare that's probably not good.

Suslik wrote:Whoa that's some really thorough change. The class has so many defense/offense options that it's extremely hard to predict how they may stack lategame. Like some random rare having 190% resist all because of talent level 15 and 970 constitution or removing all your sustains without even making a save. Overall I don't mind such thorough rework of a berserker, just think carefully that while you design class mostly for normal if random bone giant may accidentally get 190% resist all on nightmare that's probably not good.

There will be a hard cap on anything that needs one

Things that need it: anything messing with resists, armor, range, or speed. Probably more.

Fortescue wrote:

Parcae2 wrote:A suggestion for Unstoppable:
The duration should be only 2 or 3 turns. HOWEVER, every time you kill an opponent while under the effect, the duration is extended by X turns.

I've mulled that over in my head a lot, and the problem with it is that while I DO NOT LIKE it being used as an escape skill, I do not think I'll ever get removing that aspect of it past DarkGod. He did agree with me once that lowering the max to 5 was not outside the realm of possibility, though. Not sure why that didn't go into 1.2, possibly because it would have necessitated other changes as well like the ones in my document and he just didn't have time to design them.

DarkGod is a little bit more malleable than he first appears! Once upon a time he insisted on having escorts continue to hurl themselves into enemy fire, but after a few years of people complaining about it, he finally changed them to be more sensible. Clearly the correct course of action here is for everyone to whine incessantly about Unstoppable. Of course now that I've said this he's not gonna budge on it, but maybe that's what I wanted all along???

/mindgames

I actually think due to the recent changes for Acid Wave Runes and the constant Disarms that it actually somewhat weakened Unstoppable a bit. While players can of course remove Disarm easily enough with a Wild, that may not always be easy to do. I do think Berserkers could do with a slightly more time limited Unstoppable however.

Davion Fuxa wrote:I actually think due to the recent changes for Acid Wave Runes and the constant Disarms that it actually somewhat weakened Unstoppable a bit. While players can of course remove Disarm easily enough with a Wild, that may not always be easy to do. I do think Berserkers could do with a slightly more time limited Unstoppable however.

Starting with Dreadfell my game became "SHIT I AM DISARMED AGAINNNNNNNNNNNN" every other fight, or so it felt like. Never did find a 100% immunity item like I did with blind and knockback. Having Relentless Pursuit was nice to wipe it off, but 50 turn CD on that ... :[

It was rarely threatening, but holy crap annoyance factor.

It usually isn't threatening but it can be if they manage to Disarm you while you are under the effects of Unstoppable. In my fights with the Master I made a bad decision of using the talent when he had summoned a couple Armored Skeleton Warriors - not only do they have a Disarm Talent but they are likely to use Offensive Runes a lot so it ended up really bad.

Fortescue wrote: To play with some lore! Unstoppable and Shattering Shout are Garkul specialties in the lore, so now I'm retconning Berserker to include reference to Garkul as an inspirational supreme warrior.

The gameplay stuff I'm all down with, but Garkul inspirational to non-orcs? No way.

Garkul was created specifically as a leverage against the player's backstory, to deconstruct the notion of player-as-hero. The idea is to make the player worship the enemy's heroes more than his own. Incorporating Garkul into a western class background breaks that apart, whilst also making no sense from a racial and cultural perspective. Garkul was, after all, a terrorizing force who murdered hundreds of thousands.

I don't see how cunning relates to Berserkers. Sure critical hits are nice, but a real Berserker cuts enemies in two with just raw strength.
Cunning implies careful planning, not charging in a slaughtering anything in the way.