ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

One thing I really enjoy about Tome 4 is attempting to get unconventional builds to function well. And a lot of the time, there isn't much that is really too unconventional; a ton of classes in Tome 4 have a variety of effective ways to build them--and while some aren't absolute optimums--most options available to a class can perform well on normal difficulty.

However, I find in no way this same expanse of build decisions given to ranged weapon characters. There are only two characters that currently possess the ability to get Bow Mastery and Sling Mastery. Yes, every character gets access to Shoot and Reload, but the damage multiplier and physical damage is key in justifying using a turn (or two) to use a sling/bow attack. This is the first, and primary, issue of ranged combat: as it is, it is the only weapon mastery unavailable to all character combinations. It makes classes that could borderline on really using a ranged weapon (either primarily as a more 'gimmicky' build or as a legitimate secondary weapon [possibly with the use of Swift Hands]) because the damage isn't just worse, it is almost always comparatively worse than other options.

The second issue with ranged combat is the lack of skills that actually function with it. Outside of Archer, the majority of weapon skills are designed to function specifically with melee combat. There are some obvious (and good) exceptions to this in Weapon Folding, Poisons, Venomous Strike, and probably a few others I do not know about. However, there are many weapon skills that could apply to ranged combat, but do not. Some examples of this are: Cripple, Weapon of Light, Shadowstrike, Shadow Combat, maybe Dirty Fighting, Predator [Anatomy, Outmaneuver], Death Blow, Greater Weapon Focus [if it doesn't, idk], and others. Specifically, the passives & buffs that do not apply to ranged combat bother me the most as far as character building options are concerned.

If this is viewed as a fundamental problem (i.e. not by me personally, but by dg and others), here is my tentative proposal. I am in no way married to these ideas, and I welcome anything better that could be proposed.

Proposal of Issue #1:
Remove Bow & Sling Mastery from their respective Archer class trees. Add it to the Weapon Training tree as a passive of the same effect (possibly without the reload addition) or add them onto Dagger Mastery. Replace these skills with a respective passive for their archery class trees; ideas for these passive replacements are welcome. If reload was is removed from the generic 'Archery Mastery', I would advice placing the reload in addition to any of these talents.


Issue #2 is a bit stranger. The actual weapon skills are arguable and sort-of doubtful, but I strongly believe most of the passive or sustained melee weapon effects should apply to ranged weapons.

Oh and really I just made this post because I was mad I couldn't make a Sling Sun Paladin.

I agree that Bow and Sling Mastery should be moved to Combat Training, but then the sling + Momentum combo will need to be nerfed since Rogues, Shadowblades, Marauders, and Temporal Warden will all become far too powerful with slings.

i think it would be better to add locked sling or bow tree to escorts at 0.8 mastery or so

what you want to do it's to make melee classes to be better with ranged than even archers

>Remove Bow & Sling Mastery from their respective Archer class trees. Add it to the Weapon Training tree as a passive of the same effect (possibly without the reload addition) or add them onto Dagger Mastery. Replace these skills with a respective passive for their archery class trees

thanks, archers now should spend both generic points to get mastery and class points to get passive, simply amazing

>There are some obvious (and good) exceptions to this in Weapon Folding, Poisons, Venomous Strike, and probably a few others I do not know about.

precise strikes, blinding speed

I'm definitely for making Sling and Bow Mastery generic skills under Combat Training. I wouldn't mind if they were hidden at first like Exotic Weapon Mastery is for the classes who don't use it, and you could pick it up through an escort or something.

Also, I'm in favor of getting rid of having to 'learn' Shoot if you're not an Archer. Just like shields teach the block skill, bows should teach the shoot skill and arrows teach the reload skill.

bpat wrote:I agree that Bow and Sling Mastery should be moved to Combat Training, but then the sling + Momentum combo will need to be nerfed since Rogues, Shadowblades, Marauders, and Temporal Warden will all become far too powerful with slings.

Momentum + Sling is ridiculous anyway. It should die.


For replacement talents, I was thinking maybe:
Sustain. Reduce movement speed by 40%. Movement costs 6 stamina and fires an arrow at a random target in range.

grayswandir wrote:I'm definitely for making Sling and Bow Mastery generic skills under Combat Training.

it would mean heavy nerf for archers and temporal wardens for no reason

if the first skills in corresponding trees were replaced with some placeholder passives (and even worse if the reload speed depended on that passive i.e. if it must be maxed) it would mean they should spend 5 valuable generics to get bow/sling mastery under combat training and 1-5 class points to get that new passive, i.e. the archer and temporal warden classes are robbed of 5 generic points without any compensation just because some marauder want to use sling out of blue

kyuubee wrote:... the archer and temporal warden classes are robbed of 5 generic points without any compensation just because some marauder want to use sling out of blue

Why are you assuming there wouldn't be any compensation? They'll be getting a whole new class skill.

Reload will be changed in the next version.

Change to ammo! Now moving or waiting a turn will reload ammo automatically (based on items bonuses & talent level).
Reload talent is now instant, reloads a bunch of ammo at once but disarms you for 2 turns.

An instant talent with cooldown 0 means that you can fill the quiver and then remove the disarm penalty with a wild infusion without loosing a turn. I think that it's better than the actual situation, but that some tweaking of the numbers may be needed.

I also agree that the bow and sling mastery talents should be merged (Ranged Mastery?) and moved to the general tree.

A problem are interesting new talents, one for bows and one for slings. Some half-cooked ideas below.

For slings perhaps an area attack similar to volley of arrows as fourth talent, perhaps with a cone-shaped area, but it's probably too similar to the bow talent.

Perhaps reintroduce Critical Shot for bows; an improved version could be Deadly Shot, an automatic critical hit that may kill a weakened target (with the stamina cost of Death Blow). (edited)

A passive or sustained talent that increases the traveling speed and perhaps the range of the projectiles, perhaps at the cost of some accuracy (this could be merged with other talents).

grayswandir wrote: Why are you assuming there wouldn't be any compensation? They'll be getting a whole new class skill.

yes, and it's almost sure it will be either useless or not that useful one (which means you will spend 5 generic and 1 class point instead of 5 class points), since it's invented simply as a placeholder for fixing what's not broken, or even worse, it may be both bad and mandatory, like the original post suggests to make a separate reload speed passive which would mean mandatory 5 generic and 5 class points for something which you have right now for 5 class points

the skill should be really good to compensate 5 mandatory generic points anyway

it's a serious revamp for no real reason, since even if you want to give ranged possibility to melee it's possible to allow other classes to get the whole locked class tree from escorts and rogues could have locked sling tree by default (with some nerf to sling + momentum)

Every other class puts 5 points into generics for their weapon. I don't really see why ranged should be any different. If they need to be strengthed because of this (which I don't really think they do), other talents can be boosted to make up for it.

kyuubee wrote:it's a serious revamp for no real reason, since even if you want to give ranged possibility to melee it's possible to allow other classes to get the whole locked class tree from escorts and rogues could have locked sling tree by default (with some nerf to sling + momentum)

But you can't get class trees/skills from escorts. Only generic.



Anyway, here's some more talent ideas:
- Escape!: Range 1 knockback shot followed by disengage.
- Delay Shot: Strong shot that isn't actually fired until your next turn. You'd have to predict where the enemy is going to be in advance, or you could use it to get a preemptive strike on an enemy you knew was coming around the corner.
- Master Precision: If you crit with a status effect ranged talent, the status duration is increased by X%.

grayswandir wrote:Every other class puts 5 points into generics for their weapon. I don't really see why ranged should be any different. If they need to be strengthed because of this (which I don't really think they do), other talents can be boosted to make up for it.

because they are already different, were that way for a very long time and are balanced around it. and archers aren't especially popular and are considered as weak, i heard it multiple times from different people. imo 'they are different and it should be unified' isn't a valid reason for change and especially for nerf

But you can't get class trees/skills from escorts. Only generic.

i don't think it's hard to make that escorts can give 2 those class trees too

The existing bow/sling mastery talent is basically a mandatory filler talent as it is.
Moving it stops it being a filler talent, but it will still be mandatory.
I see no reason to assume the replacement talent is going to be passive/mandatory/useless.