ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Buckler Training
Mastery over their Shields separates Slingers from Archers, and gives them an edge. Those with enough skill even manage to deflect spells. Class category.

Notes - This category is intended for the upcoming Skirmisher class I am designing, which is a Sling specialist Rogue who takes maximum advantage of their Shield. I am tempted to nerf the defensive numbers on this already because it will be a Class Category, but it will be the DEFINING Class Category, so it needs to be strong. Guaranteed crits abound as rewards for 5/5, but keep in mind Slings are powered by Cunning and so these characters would have a high critical hit rate anyway. It is less of a big deal than it would be on a Bow user who specializes in Str / Dex, for example.

Buckler Expertise
Passive. You are allowed to equip Shields. Ignore all Strength equip requirements (or convert them to Dex, whoever codes this. I don't care either way). You have an x% (rank / dex, max 30%) chance to block any incoming melee attack, reducing incoming damage by your Shield’s block value. You gain 4% Hardiness per rank, and at rank 5 you double your equipped Shield's Damage value. Disabled if wearing any Armour heavier than Leather.

Notes - The real intent of this category is to counter enemies that use projectiles, and I would like it if having a point in Buckler Expertise disabled the “Block” skill so that no one is confused into thinking they are supposed to use it (ever).

Bash and Smash
Active. Bash an enemy in melee range with your shield, doing 100% (+25% dex/rank) Shield damage and knocking them back 2 squares, immediately followed by a deadly short range Sling shot attack for 150% (+50% cunning/rank) damage. At Rank 3 the Knock-back is 3 squares, and at rank 5 you attack with your Shield twice, causing Knock-back on the 2nd hit. Costs x Stamina. Cooldown 14-10 (-1 / rank).

Notes - Just a simple space control technique with a high damage component if you go 5/5 into this and Buckler Mastery. As a ranged user you don’t want to get this close to anyone anyways, so doing a lot of damage is actually somewhat moot and more of an emergency button than a go-to attack. I could see a lot of people just going 1 / 5 in this, and it would still be useful to them.

Buckler Mastery
Passive. You have a x% (rank / dex, max 65%) chance to Block any incoming projectile (physical or otherwise). At Rank 3 your Bash and Smash shield attack is a guaranteed critical hit, and at rank 5 any blocked attack damage is reduced by 50% before regular block reduction occurs. Disabled if wearing any Armour heavier than Leather.

Notes - The real meat of this category, this intentionally works regardless of if you attacked that round or not, and is meant to establish your advantage over other ranged actors, including vs. magical projectiles. The 50% damage reduction on blocked attacks is intended to help this class scale past Normal mode. It works on melee and ranged attacks.


Counter Shot
Sustain. Instant. Up to twice per turn, any time you block an attack with Buckler Training or Buckler Expertise you instantly counterattack with your Sling for 90% (+15% per rank) weapon damage. Costs x Stamina per Counter Shot. At rank 5 your Counter Shots are guaranteed critical hits.

Notes - Fun stuff right? Not a huge source of damage even with 5/5, but a great little passive that jives with the rest of the category, and relies on earlier talents to function, making it a good capstone. 1 Active, 1 Sustain, 2 Passives is a nice balance for a category also, I feel.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, numbers probably need tweaked (as always when I design something), but I think this is a lot of fun in concept. This category is meant to be paired with Acrobatics as defaults for Skirmisher, making them incredibly mobile and skilled at dealing with ranged enemies, but lacking great defenses against melee enemies due to their reliance on Light armours.

As part of the Rogue metaclass I believe Slingers would also get access to Traps and Poisons, but not Stealth as they are more harassers than assassins. The last thing I need to figure out for them is their primary offensive categories. They might get something entirely new that Archer doesn't have (probably will), but it will have a lot in common with the Archer tree. What I would LIKE to happen is Archers lose access to Slings because anyone who wants to use a Sling would play Skirmisher instead due to its talent support for the Shield offhand, but that is further down the line and those plans are far from finished. A fun trick will be coming up with enough class categories to give players real choice without creating redundant ones. Expect something optional encouraging Will as a build choice, and maybe Strength for another option.

I outlined my thoughts while designing these talents this time so that people can address them directly instead of having to guess what I was thinking when I made a talent. I believe that will lead to more productive criticism.

I know I often disagree with your ideas but as a whole, there are some great ideas here. As always, I have a few concerns, but I have high hopes for this new class and category.

Buckler Expertise should not double your block value since it makes this class better at blocking than Bulwarks and Sun Paladins, which should not be the case for a ranged class. I also don't really know how I feel about removing the Block talent. Blocking should be something you actively do rather than just having a chance to passively block. The percent chance to block also gives you the possibility of being totally screwed by the RNG. I would leave Block as an active talent and remove the passive block chance and the block value doubling but keep the rest since the rest is great.

Bash and Smash is great, like this class's version of Overpower. I would make it use Dexterity instead of Strength for determining the shield damage but other than that it's fine as it is.

For Buckler Mastery, I don't really understand what exactly you're referring to when you say it will double the damage and armor value. Since I don't think Block as a talent should be removed I would replace the projectile block chance with a percent chance to reduce the damage of a projectile by half.

Counter Shot seems a bit too similar to Intuitive Shots. I'd make it do a shield bash knockback for melee blocks and a sling shot for ranged ones to give it more vareity. This would apply to things blocked with the Block talent and things "blocked" by Buckler Mastery.

More detailed response in a bit, for now though, keep in mind this is meant to be paired with Acrobatics which is very not-random. Getting attacked as a ranged class should be risky, you should be at the mercy of RNG.

I strongly disagree that RNG alone should determine whether or not you block an attack. One of the best things about this game is that when you die, it's almost always because of a mistake you made. Leaving blocking up to RNG will allow for some ridiculous deaths that players don't deserve, which is bad for a roguelike game where you have limited lives.

How do Archers guarantee they don't get hit by ranges attacks 100% of the time?

I'm not saying you can dodge everything as an Archer, but this class has a shield so it should be defensive. Making a class's primary defensive mechanic RNG based rather than tactical doesn't seem very fun to me.

As far as code goes, there is currently no sensible way of bypassing or adjusting item requirements. (DarkGod, a hook please.)
Also, checking that the actor has not attacked this turn is a nightmare.
Just use the existing Block system.

HousePet wrote:Just use the existing Block system.

I don't like that system in general, I especially refuse to use it on a class meant to be highly mobile. Standing still (without attacking) is something a Skirmisher should NEVER do.

I don't care how shields work for Bulwarks or Sun Paladins.

I don't care how ranged works for Archers or if some thing in here is similar to what they've already got.

I know how I want this class to play and I am designing the mechanics to support that play style.

HousePet wrote:Also, checking that the actor has not attacked this turn is a nightmare.

Well that requirement was just to make blocking melee attacks a lot less likely to happen than ranged. I can compensate for that by just lowering the % chance to block melee further and letting it work all the time.

You could make a class of items (bucklers) which require dex and give you the Deflect ability, which is in general weaker than block but is instant?

What do you mean by Projectiles for Buckler Mastery? Would that be any Archery Related talent or would it also include attacks outside the physical realm? Just like Parrying or the normal Block, you shouldn't be blocking anything past physical with the talent unless Spectral Shield is perhaps brought into play.

I'm also with bpat and Housepet on Block and not removing access to it (if you have a shield you should be able to Block with it) - but one way to get to what you want with Buckler Expertise is to make it a Sustain that when you turn on it disables Block or puts it on an eternal Cooldown or something. Making Bucklers of course would also work.

On to your skills anyhow, I sort of like some of the idea but think it could also use a bit of rearrange, move some effects around, and completely rework Buckler Mastery:

First, I'd have the treee go Buckler Expertise, Counter Shot, Bash and Smash, Buckler Mastery:

I'd probably make Buckler Expertise affect Melee & Ranged attacks at any talent level as well and take out the damage reduction from the skill entirely - the ability to move around the battlefield and avoid a substantial amount of damage can't be overrated (I've won too many difficult fights not to discount mobility away or near enemies) but I'd personally like the effects more if blocking Melee & Ranged happened from the first point investment and the 'real meat' Damage Reduction was thrown over and made unique to Buckler Mastery.

Bash And Smash sounds cool and looks cool. Perhaps though the extra Shield hit and Shield damage could come from Buckler Mastery and Bash & Smash would only affect the Knockback range, Cooldown, Scaling Damage with your Sling, and the Critical hits with Shields and Slings.

Counter Shot should be only limited to triggering off Buckler Expertise. I'd maybe make the amount of shots Counter Shot can fire scale up (so you don't immediately get 2 Counters with 1 Point invested, but after say 3 or 4) . I'd probably make it so that in Melee you don't Counter with your Sling but with your Shield - and that damage is also governed by Buckler Mastery and wouldn't require any ammo (you don't get extra Shield hits, Knockback, or an attack with your Sling afterwards).

And then of course a really reworked Buckler Mastery:

I'd change Buckler Mastery to a Passive that gives your character a gradual damage reduction to archers - reduces all ranged attacks by X% per Talent Point when Buckler Expertise is turned on (if using Shields) or doesn't matter if you just make Bucklers.

Outside of the above hatred towards other Archers, It would also affect the damage of shields hits for Bash And Smash or Counter Shot per Talent Point investment as well as extra Shield hits that get thrown in at a specific Talent Point investment. It would also give additional Blocks for Buckler Expertise.

grayswandir wrote:You could make a class of items (bucklers) which require dex and give you the Deflect ability, which is in general weaker than block but is instant?

Not going to happen. DG won't add new item classes, especially for a one-off purpose like this.

What do you mean by Projectiles for Buckler Mastery? Would that be any Archery Related talent or would it also include attacks outside the physical realm? Just like Parrying or the normal Block, you shouldn't be blocking anything past physical with the talent unless Spectral Shield is perhaps brought into play.

It'll block whatever I want it to block. In this case anything that is a projectile. I don't know how to make that any more clear. If the object moving towards you has a travel time, you can block it.

I'm not going to bother repeating what I said about how I don't care how other classes use Shields.