ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Currently, there's exactly one mastery talent for each weapon type. For some characters this is fine: a Berserker is building Strength anyway, and only cares about one mastery talent. For other characters this is a burden: a Temporal Warden would need to buy 3 different mastery talents to cover all the weapon types that he or she is "supposed" to use.

Additionally, some mastery talents come in trees or provide benefits which are not available or relevant to new classes. For example, the Shield mastery talent is only available to Stone Wardens, and provides an automatic shield bash on melee attack. Another example, the Unarmed mastery talent comes in a tree which also benefits strike cooldown and combo point generation. If you're using a variant class which is focused on Grappling instead of Pugilism, you've got a couple of useless deadweight talents dangling off your mastery.


The Proposal
- Multiple different mastery talents can apply to the same weapon
- Mastery talent benefits overlap (do not stack) for each weapon


Example Implementation Details

Weapon Mastery (generic, requires level 1, 8, 16, 24, 32) - no stat requirement
Grants a bonus to damage and physical power for all normal weapons, which is all weapons except Staves and Mindstars. This is what you take if you are a TW using the "default" weapon assumptions. This is the "power" equivalent to Combat Accuracy.
Balance: Grants a lower bonus to power and damage than any other Mastery talent per point invested. You are flexible, and that flexibility comes at a price.

Agile Mastery (generic, requires Dex as Dagger Mastery, replaces Dagger Mastery)
Grants a bonus to damage, physical power and a low accuracy boost for daggers and whips.
Balance: The accuracy bonus is about 60% of what Combat Accuracy would provide, and does not stack with Combat Accuracy. If you're building Dexterity this ought to be sufficient.

Greatweapon Mastery (generic, requires Strength)
Grants a bonus to damage and physical power for two-handed normal weapons and tridents. Only Berserkers and Doombringers get this mastery.
Balance: Highest physical power boost per point invested.

Something for Sword & Shield maybe, something for paired sword-and-dagger maybe, etc.


Consequences

Temporal Wardens would have multiple viable builds: spec bow mastery 5/5, or generalize and invest in Weapon Mastery (slower to build, less powerful in total) to take advantage of their weapon swapping flexibility.

Hybrid multi-style classes like the Arcane Blade or Wyrmic could just get Weapon Mastery and retain their theoretical weapon flexibility without needing to juggle generic points, even if they decide to go daggers instead of their current default (a big two-hander).

New weapon style mastery talents could be made -- say, a Duelist Mastery which applies to only Daggers and one-handed Swords.

New magical weapon style mastery talents could be made -- say, a Staff melee dude based on Paradox, or a Mindstar tree aimed at Afflicted or Psionic non-Wilders.

First I was like No! and then I read onward and went like maybe. The first mastery sounds pretty ok, for the second one I'm not sure on the details. How much bonuses would it give compared to dagger mastery? Is there any reason for rogues to do daggers anymore instead of this agile mastery?

On the third one, wouldn't it be straight power boost for Berserker? What would they gain by getting the regular mastery instead of greatweapon one, except the ability to wield onehanders, which I bet not many would want?

Faeryan wrote:First I was like No! and then I read onward and went like maybe. The first mastery sounds pretty ok, for the second one I'm not sure on the details. How much bonuses would it give compared to dagger mastery? Is there any reason for rogues to do daggers anymore instead of this agile mastery?

Ah, I didn't explain that sufficiently -- under this proposal, Dagger Mastery goes away and is effectively replaced by Agile Mastery.

Faeryan wrote:On the third one, wouldn't it be straight power boost for Berserker? What would they gain by getting the regular mastery instead of greatweapon one, except the ability to wield onehanders, which I bet not many would want?

A minor one, but yes. They'd get free Trident proficiency.

Certainly sounds like an interesting idea...

Added this to Nulltweaks (as an option).

Please give it a spin!

I many ways I really don't like the Weapon Mastery idea that grants you the ability to use both the simple and then complex weapons. Bows and Slings are both very complex weapons and in the game they literally require Class Points instead of Generic Points due to how focused one would have to be to use them; same goes for Unarmed Combat on Brawlers. Exotic Weapons are also... Exotic, and requiring specialized training makes sense too.

Having more Specialized Weapons Mastery paired with a Generic Weapon Mastery talent however, I could get behind; even replacing the Weapon Mastery entirely in some cases. Some ideas then to throw out:

Agile Mastery - Daggers and Whips as stated. Rogue and Shadowblade specific - since they could perhaps get away with training in 'exotic weapons' due to being Assassin Classes so to speak. Also, could synergize Ambush and Scoundrel Category to have added bonuses when using Whips. They wouldn't get the generic Weapon mastery since they don't need it - and they aren't Marauders.

Greatweapon Mastery (Two Handed Weapons included Tridents as stated) - Appearing on Berserkers and replace the generic Weapon Mastery - wouldn't change things much for Berserkers other then the Tridents inclusion. Could appear on any class that has Two Handed Talents in them as a choice along with Blade Mastery and Blunt Mastery (Cursed, Arcane Blade, and Wyrmics).

Blade Mastery (Greatsword, Longswords, and Daggers) - Temporal Wardens and Marauders (especially Housepet's Marauder concept) might get this. While Greatswords perhaps have little use for Temporal Wardens and Marauders, if this becomes available to say Arcane Blades, and Cursed they could mix and match Greatswords perhaps. Don't think Wyrmics would get this skill as I see this as more of a Two Weapon Talents affiliation which they don't have.

Blunt Mastery (Axes, Maces, and Shields) - Bulwarks and Sun Paladins would pick this one up to replace the generic Weapon Mastery. They would lose swords but retain Maces and Axes for use. On Cursed, Arcane Blades, and Wyrmics they could again Mix and Match with Two Handers or Shields. Note, I included Axes even though one might be consider them 'Blunt' because Blades would be more Finesse based which Axes certainly aren't.

A generic Weapon Mastery could perhaps still be thrown in there - perhaps for Cursed, Arcane Blades, and Wyrmics since they aren't 'necessarily' focused on their weapons as much. In such a case I would completely retool the Blade Mastery to be 'Finesse' or 'Duelist' and drop Greatswords; Bulwarks and Sun Paladins would get a retooled Blunt Mastery towards the more 'Weapon and Board' approach. One could of course go to a complete extreme as well as just make Shadowblades, Rogues, and Berserkers unique in that they have their own 'heightened' Weapon Talent that just so happens to also include one of the Exotics.

Davion Fuxa wrote:Blade Mastery (Greatsword, Longswords, and Daggers)
Blunt Mastery (Axes, Maces, and Shields)

The game used to restrict classes by weapon type, like Cursed could only use Axes or something. Players apparently hated it and that's part of why we have what we now have.

Exotic Weapons are also... Exotic, and requiring specialized training makes sense too.

Spending class points on weapons that make up 1% (or less?) of the game's drops is not what I'd call a great idea. Doctornull is right to combine those weapons back into more generally useful masteries. They are a remnant of the old system where you could be an Axe specialist and get frustrated as you run into nothing but great Swords and Maces. By making yourself an Exotic specialist you're inflicting that on yourself, only worse, because Whips and Tridents are rarer than Swords / Axes / Maces are individually, let alone combined.

Doctornull wrote:

Davion Fuxa wrote:Blade Mastery (Greatsword, Longswords, and Daggers)
Blunt Mastery (Axes, Maces, and Shields)

The game used to restrict classes by weapon type, like Cursed could only use Axes or something. Players apparently hated it and that's part of why we have what we now have.

Another idea could be restructure more around Weapon handling then - Two Handed Weapons (including Tridents), One Handed Weapons (including Daggers), Assassination Weapons (Whips and Daggers), and a generic Weapons Masteries (Everything but Exotic, Ranged, Unarmed, Mindstars, and Staves).

Edit: Forgot to add that Arcane Blades, Cursed, and Wyrmics would probably be regulated to the generic Weapons Masstery or they could have access to both Two Handed Weapons or One Handed Weapon. Bulwarks, Sun Paladins, Marauders, and Temporal Wardens would be lumped under One Handed Weapons.

Fortescue wrote:

Exotic Weapons are also... Exotic, and requiring specialized training makes sense too.

Spending class points on weapons that make up 1% (or less?) of the game's drops is not what I'd call a great idea. Doctornull is right to combine those weapons back into more generally useful masteries. They are a remnant of the old system where you could be an Axe specialist and get frustrated as you run into nothing but great Swords and Maces. By making yourself an Exotic specialist you're inflicting that on yourself, only worse, because Whips and Tridents are rarer than Swords / Axes / Maces are individually, let alone combined.

I'm not saying that getting more use out of Exotic Weapons is a bad idea, I'm saying that we shouldn't add it into the generic Weapons Mastery. Adding it in with Specialized Weapon sets makes more sense to me, increasing their use in game while sort of getting the specialized training you need to make use of them.

Very similar, I like the idea of a generic Weapon Mastery that give a modicum of PP and damage to all weapons—including staves and mindstars, and then each individual mastery could be lower on PP and damage that would stack with Weapon Mastery and a little higher on the other benefits. We would just need one more category to cover swords and other weapons that are covered by the current Weapon Mastery. Dagger Mastery and Exotic could either be lumped in, or my preference, get a little extra like bows. Maybe daggers get a small chance to trigger Bleeding.


Weapon Mastery
Category: Combat Training
Requirements: Level (0, 4, 8, 12, 16)
Description: Increases Physical power by (talent_level * 8 ) and increases weapon damage by ((sqrt(talent_level / 5) / 2) * 80)% when using all unarmed, melee and ranged weapons.

Bow Mastery
Category: Archery - Bows
Requirements: Dex (18, 24, 30, 36, 42)
Use Mode: passive
Description: Increases Physical power by (talent_level * 2) and increases weapon damage by ((sqrt(talent_level / 5) / 2) * 20)% when using bows. When using Reload, grants (talent_level) more reloads per turn.

Honestly, it would make sense for the more general masteries to be on the generic side, while more specific ones to be class skills. For example you could have Weapon Mastery (bows, swords, axes, maces, and tridents) and Finesse Mastery (slings, daggers, and whips) on the generic side, while you could have a Greatweapon Mastery in the two handed maiming tree (it's not like that tree couldn't stand some better skills) on the class side. If you want to differentiate the masteries, you could add specific bonuses to the class ones like physical res. pen., additional crit, bleed damage, or some sort of on hit debuff. That way the hybrids have more weapon flexibility and the specialists have an edge.

I think we should move towards specific bonusses for generalise weapons rather than generalised bonusses for generalised weapons.
Combat Mastery is at the moment, 'do you attack with a weapon?' if so, max weapon mastery.
Combat Accuracy is 'do you need more accuracy?' if so, add one or more points.
Let's have options for specific things like physical power for landing weapon debuffs, raw damage for facestomping, crit chance for people who like it, parrying for people who don't use a shield...
Have different requirements for the different talents so that it becomes a proper build consideration.