ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I'm approaching High Peak with a marauder, and since the class relies so much on Bloodthirst, it plays a lot like a berserker. The only thing even vaguely roguish about it right now is the Poisons tree, which marauders probably shouldn't unlock--since they don't rely that much on Cunning, Battle Tactics and Bloodthirst are so much better. On the other hand, the only things berserkers have that marauders don't are (a) more hit points; (b) the two-handed weapon trees, unlocked, and (c) some locked trees--none of which would be game-breaking, as far as I can tell, to let marauders unlock too, if they wanted to.

This makes the separating the classes seem arbitrary. And since merging those classes would leave only the shield skills to distinguish the bulwark from them, why not combine all three in the spirit of a melee archmage? (Call it the Weaponmaster, maybe.) You'd end up with:

Birth Stats:
120 HP, +2 Life Rating, +5 str, +2 dex, +2 con

Class trees:
techniques / combat techniques - 1.3 mastery
techniques / combat veteran - 1.3 mastery
techniques / dual techniques - 1.2 mastery
techniques / dual weapons - 1.2 mastery
techniques / shield defense - 1.3 mastery
techniques / shield offense - 1.3 mastery
techniques / two-handed maiming - 1.3 mastery
techniques / two-handed weapons - 1.3 mastery
cunning / dirty fighting - 1.3 mastery

techniques / archery training - locked, 1.1 mastery
techniques / battle tactics - locked, 1.3 mastery
techniques / bloodthirst - locked, 1.2 mastery
techniques / superiority - locked, 1.3 mastery
techniques / warcries - locked, 1.3 mastery
cunning / tactical - locked, 1.2 mastery

Generic trees:
techniques / combat training - 1.3 mastery
techniques / conditioning - 1.3 mastery
techniques / field control - 1.3 mastery
techniques / mobility - 1.3 mastery
cunning / survival - 1.3 mastery

I really don't see what would be bad about going this way. Since the two-handed/dual weapon/shield trees obviously can't all be used simultaneously, having all of them available unlocked wouldn't be that much stronger than having any particular pair. You'd be more capable of adapting to variations in equipment drops--particularly early on, before you've put enough points in a given fighting style to be locked into it--which strikes me as a huge benefit. Being able to orient your build around whatever cool weapon or shield you happen to find would make the early game noticeably less predictable and more fun. And it'd be cool to have the option of switching between fighting styles in different situations, or using high-level combinations the existing three classes didn't allow, like shields and Tactical or dual weapons and Superiority.

Compared to a berserker or bulwark, you'd get Dirty Fighting unlocked for free and more places to spend your generic points; compared to a marauder, you'd trade access to Thuggery for more life per level, slightly higher masteries in your locked trees, and more options. This seems like a fair trade. (You wouldn't have passive status resistance, but that's okay--you could get it from Shield Wall or Berserker, if you wanted, which makes weapon choice a more interesting tradeoff.) Perhaps more importantly, losing Thuggery frees up a ton of generic points, which in my view is the biggest problem with the existing marauder: they can't really explore their other generic trees--which are weaker but more interesting--much less seriously consider going antimagic, unlocking harmony/an escort tree, etc.

Thoughts?

(Of course, one consequence is that there'd be no marauder to unlock. But arcane blades could be unlockable under basically the same conditions--they're all about burst damage anyway, and can be counterintuitive for new players.)

Yeah Bulwarks totally need Unstoppable, Marauders totally need a massive life spike, and Berserkers totally need Greater Weapon Focus.

No. Too good. Any combination that was balanced would strip out the unique playstyles that each represent, and any unbalanced combination would lead to ugly, overcentralized god-builds.

Considering the three classes already have centralization problems anyways, I'd much rather see them expanded on as a solution to this problem, not combined...

No.

Honestly, I'd rather see some classes split rather than some merged. Archmage is already like five classes in one.

SageAcrin wrote:Yeah Bulwarks totally need Unstoppable, Marauders totally need a massive life spike, and Berserkers totally need Greater Weapon Focus.

No. Too good. Any combination that was balanced would strip out the unique playstyles that each represent, and any unbalanced combination would lead to ugly, overcentralized god-builds.

Considering the three classes already have centralization problems anyways, I'd much rather see them expanded on as a solution to this problem, not combined...

Grakor456 wrote:Honestly, I'd rather see some classes split rather than some merged. Archmage is already like five classes in one.

Quoting these people for truth and emphasis.

There always Adventurer class to play with for those who like merging stuff together.
Personally I gotta say one thing that drew and has kept me with roguelikes is the sheer number of classes.

Like already mentioned, I'm one fit splitting the class rather than merging.

Yes. Marauder unlock can be replaced with trees unlock for Warrior.

As they are now, Bulwark and Berserker are like poor imitation of Marauder, and all three are very similar.

I consider the Bulwark or the Berserker as they are now very beginner friendly. Newbies shouldn't have too much trouble playing them which will let them experience more of the game. If we combine a tonne of Categories together then we start to make things more complicated - and while an Arcane Blade might be fun it definitely isn't something easy for a Newbie to grasp.

Fair points. I guess my real complaint is that the current marauder plays too much like a berserker-plus (I do think Thuggery, dual weapons and Battle Tactics more than compensates for the reduced HP and loss of two-handed weapons, Warcries, and Superiority) though I can see how merging the classes would go in the wrong direction.

While I do see the point of keeping the melee classes distinct (and not letting them just pick the best abilities of all three) it does still bother me that they're locked into specific weapon loadouts, largely for the reason I gave in the original post. Right now there are so many cool unique items that your options vary hugely from one playthrough to another; being able to fit your build more around what you find would, I can't help but think, be all to the good. Right now I feel like the three classes are like: "Here's the tough, skilled guy--and oh yeah, he uses a shield" and "here's the tough, agressive guy--and oh yeah, he uses a two-hander" and "here's the guy who's skilled *and* aggressive, but not quite as tough--and oh yeah, he dual wields." And that *does* seem arbitrary.

comrade raoul wrote:While I do see the point of keeping the melee classes distinct (and not letting them just pick the best abilities of all three) it does still bother me that they're locked into specific weapon loadouts, largely for the reason I gave in the original post. Right now there are so many cool unique items that your options vary hugely from one playthrough to another; being able to fit your build more around what you find would, I can't help but think, be all to the good. Right now I feel like the three classes are like: "Here's the tough, skilled guy--and oh yeah, he uses a shield" and "here's the tough, agressive guy--and oh yeah, he uses a two-hander" and "here's the guy who's skilled *and* aggressive, but not quite as tough--and oh yeah, he dual wields." And that *does* seem arbitrary.

I don't think that's arbitrary: I see it as acknowledging the inherent strengths and weaknesses of those styles. Someone with a shield will inherently be more defensive than those without one. Dual-wielding is inherently more about finesse and parries to survive, while two-handers are all-out offense. That's all pretty true-to-life.

That's true.

It just means Berserkers should be improved somehow.

Hmm, that just gave me an idea for a set of pseudo-adventurer classes (that will probably never get made). Take all of the best attributes from one meta-class, and put it in one OP character.

Maybe you are just playing Maurauder as a Berserker?

When did Marauders get Bloodthirst? :-/ Maybe that's the issue?