ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Suggestion
make telekinetically wielding anything but mindstar viable.

Problem
Mindslayers start with telekinetically wieled two handed sword, and their beyond the flesh ability descriptions ("use wil and cun instead of str and dex") implies it is made for strength based weapons.
But almost every one of their class abilities just do not work without a mindstar in that slot:

• Absorption: shields are weaker without focused channeling, even though they are much more necessary for melee build.
• Projection: Aura spikes do less damage, and auras are weaker, same way as shields.
• Mobility: all abilities have extremely low range without Reach.
• Grip: All abilities have lowered effects without mindstars.

So with two-hander in mind slot, mindslayer trade stronger shields, higher mobility and ranged attacks
for one free melee attack per turn, for 60% of will/cun (percentage is spelled only in Greater Telekinetic Grasp description, no mention of it in Beyond the Flesh)

Sollution
To make viable two-hander build we need to

• Remove Focused Channeling altogether, adjust shields auras values accordingly
• Make Augmented Mobility tree unaffected by Reach at all, Adjust range of abilities to be on pair with abilities of other melee classes (range 3 on first level is way too low)
• Make Psi-Fighting a tree that focuses on large weapons.
  • Make Telekinetic smash use telekinetically wielded weapon.
  • Make Frenzied Psifighting attack that hits 2/4/5/7/8 enemies in melee with telekinetically wielded weapon for something like 200%-300% damage. and move it into tier 3.
  • Move Greater Telekinetic Grasp to Psi Fighting, tier 4 and make it 100% at level 5.

Other improvements for all mindslayers

• Give Conduit for free for putting points in Projection tree.
• Increase auras spike damage, to be on pair with Mindlash

As the result we will have ranged caster build with telekinetically wielded mindstars and melee fighter build with telekinetically wielded two-hander and boosted strength for armor usage.

Also some skills are needed in place of Focused Channeling in Focus tree, and Greater Telekinetic Grasp in Grip tree.

Just today we were leveling Mindslayers pretty much the same pace, one was STR based two-handed build while the other a mindstar melee build.

Once we get higher levels it'll be interesting to compare stuff.

Once I get through with my mindstar dude I might try two-handed build right after.

As I haven't tried one yet I can't really comment on the thing.

Also, this isn't documented, but Conduit only applies to Mindlash if you've got a TK mindstar. If you're teking a weapon instead, you only deal the listed physical damage.

I find the Mindslayer's mechanics very confusing. Could someone give me a rundown of how they work in another thread?

It is rather odd that mindlash seems to be one of their strongest talents despite apparently being something they aren't very good at. I think part of the problem is the linear scaling on mindstar/gem tier. Make it square root-ish scaling like talent level and they will seem rather less attractive..

Perhaps a telekinetically grasped mindstar shouldn't be allowed to use psiblades, (do they currently?) so they're less viable as a third weapon.

So, problem is, originally, the whole thing was balanced around two different builds - a gem build (which would TK-wield gems, and get boosts on all its caster powers) and a weapon build (which would tk-wield weapons and get nifty autoattack goodness). Then we added mindstars, which suddenly counted as both a gem and a (relatively weak) weapon, and were instantly better than both, even before mindstar mastery became generally available. There needs to be some rebalancing to account for the new realities, and before we do that, we should probably think a bit on the tradeoffs between weapon-based and mindstar-based mindslayers.

Off the top of my head:
- mindstar-based should have some powers that it's better at (perhaps not to the level it's at currently). It's going to be the more ranged-caster version of the build, so it shouldn't be getting better mobility or better shields, but ranged attack boosts are still applicable here.
- weapon-based should be better at weapons, and dealing melee damage. There should be a fully viable build that ignores mindstars altogether.

So, off of that, I have the following general suggestions.

- I agree with yabluchko on at least a fair amount of what he has to say. Mobility shouldn't care about Reach. Shields and conduit damage shouldn't be affected by gem tier in any way. Aura spike damage and possibly also base aura damage should be at least somewhat gem-tier-dependent - probably baked into the skill itself. Greater TK grasp should move to Psi Fighting, but shouldn't improve gem tier at 5.
- I'm not sure I agree with buffing aura spike damage - the fact that it's instant is pretty significant.
- make augmentation work better (significantly) for anyone psi-wielding a non-gem, possibly in a tier-dependent way. This makes the idea of going all melee weapons, or 2hd/1hd/shield a lot more viable. Right now, it's pretty weak, which is about right for the mindstar mindslayer, but unfortunate for the melee weapon mindslayer. alternately/additionally, make str and dex actually assist in dealing damage with a non-mindstar TK weapon.

Rather than forcing Mindslayer to go your way because if his awesome skill why not give Berserker a skill that lets you wield two handed weapon in each hand. For me it sounds more fitting to the theme.

Or maybe create an add-on class Phantom Warrior / Poltergeist, an incorporeal fallen warrior who's hovering weapons around him with the force of his will. Since his body is long gone his health would be determined by his will alone, that would also be fitting to telekinetic moving of objects.

Mayfair wrote:Rather than forcing Mindslayer to go your way because if his awesome skill

It's about allowing Mindslayers to be played in the original 2h-er way

I for one highly support buffing that build somehow.

My first win was a 2-Hander and I have a few things to say about it. The 2-hander build has the advantage of using many of the more powerful artifacts in the game than the mindstar build. I agree with most of the solutions suggested, just wanted you guys to keep in mind the artifacts aspect.

The artifact thing is a fair point, but...

Really, I want a player who's just unlocked mindslayer to be able to read through the available skill list, while knowing about the mindstar thing, and still be able to see reasons to choose a two-hander build.

Of course, it would also be nice to have a ranged build. Possibly...
- TK-wielded ranged weapons don't autoattack, but if you are wearing an appropriate ammo they do give you access to the shoot command, and react accordingly. If you are wieldign two ranged weapons and ammo that's compatible for both, and have at least two ammo in your quiver/bag, you fire both in a single action. That would give us a clear reason to TK-wield ranged weapons, without making them obviously better than any other option. At that point, all you have to do is let them start with the "shoot" ability, and maybe give them an unlockable tree that buffs TK-wielded ranged weapons in various ways and you're pretty much done.

Mind you, once we've done that, someone's going to want a class that dual-wields slings, just for the adventurer silliness, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing

so i made an addon to implement some of this - http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/mindslayer_fix

Greater telekinetic grasp moved to Psi-fighting, and acts like weapons mastery for tk weapons.
Beyond flash uses 100% of cun and wil instead of 60%
Frenzied psifighting acts like berserker's death dance, but with tk wielded weapon
Telekinetic smash uses tk wielded weapon.

Conduit is learned automatically.

Augmented mobility is unaffected by Reach and ranges are buffed to be on pair with other classes

Aura spike damage uses same formula as Mindlash damage (scales with tk wielded mindstar level same way)

and i am not sure if i should post it in addons forum instead of here

and i am not sure if i should post it in addons forum instead of here

Well, you kinda posted it here already. Make a post on add-ons, edit your previous post here to include a link and make sure to upload it on the main site so it validates.

Making a new add-on to include requested changes to already existing classes is actually the best way to introduce new stuff so people can experiment with it and see which one people like better. Maybe it'll spark interest in DG himself and he'll include the changes in vanilla Mindslayer.

yabluchko wrote:so i made an addon to implement some of this - http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/mindslayer_fix

Greater telekinetic grasp moved to Psi-fighting, and acts like weapons mastery for tk weapons.
Beyond flash uses 100% of cun and wil instead of 60%
Frenzied psifighting acts like berserker's death dance, but with tk wielded weapon
Telekinetic smash uses tk wielded weapon.

Conduit is learned automatically.

Augmented mobility is unaffected by Reach and ranges are buffed to be on pair with other classes

Aura spike damage uses same formula as Mindlash damage (scales with tk wielded mindstar level same way)

and i am not sure if i should post it in addons forum instead of here

So since Beyond the Flesh uses 100% of cun and wil, does that mean a melee mindslayer has to pump str (for being able to actually tk wield 2 handed weapons), dex (for accuracy, and if they want to wield a dagger in their offhand), & wil and cun for their trees? Also, do these changes affect the choice of weaponry a melee mindslayer should physically wield?

malboro_urchin wrote:does that mean a melee mindslayer has to pump str (for being able to actually tk wield 2 handed weapons)...

There are no restrictions on what a character TK wields. Stats aren't checked, and neither is if it's arcane powered (for AM characters).

lukep wrote:

malboro_urchin wrote:does that mean a melee mindslayer has to pump str (for being able to actually tk wield 2 handed weapons)...

There are no restrictions on what a character TK wields. Stats aren't checked, and neither is if it's arcane powered (for AM characters).

So in terms of stat requirements for gear, is the most efficient thing to do for a melee mindslayer to tk wield the best 2 hander you can find, and dual wield mindstars?