ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

In 1.0.5, Sludgenest farming got a "double whammy" -- one in that the enemies now get harder (dramatically!) and the other that all the items in sludgenest are reduced to a mere value of... 5%. Meaning there is little in-game benefit to fighting off those incredibly powerful ooze hordes. There's the achievements, and the fun, but really no reward except for any items you actually want. So I'm requesting that the value reduction is reduced/removed, allowing for high-risk high-reward farming in the sludgenest.

Fighting these oozes is probably significantly harder than farming Zigur patrols, and should probably get significantly greater rewards.

Also, gonna make an addon that fulfills this request.

You can always do farportals for your farming needs. Plus there are issues with it only being available for some characters. (Ofc if you're making an addon you might as well guarantee sludge nest)

Jotwebe, my "Extra Dungeons" addon does, in fact, make Sludgenest (along with Caldera and a couple other places) available to all characters. I feel it's very imbalanced and irritating that the existence of entire zones containing unlocks, achievements, and unique content (because neither Sludgenest nor Caldera qualify as "standard" dungeons) is either random or forces you into a certain race.

Also, as I've been fighting in the Sludgenest I'm not so sure I want it to be fully removed: The randarts you can get from very-high-level sludges are actually incredibly excellent, however setting it way down to .05 is way too low. So right now I'm thinking something like .33-.67.

The sludgenest change was made to prevent farming. Why do we need to encourage it again?

Yeah those changes were made specifically so that you wouldn't want to farm there.

And then you complain that farming there is bad.

Answer: It's supposed to be. You're not supposed to farm. Stop trying.

Personally, I suggested it less because farming is bad(It is, but as long as there's substantial risk/reward it's not horrible.) and more because Sludgenest isn't available to everyone.

It was making Thalore notably better than everyone else, due to the 100% chance, mainly.

This isn't to say that I think the debuff should be removed, though.

I am a little inclined to say it shouldn't, on the grounds that I've never actually been threatened by an Ooze or Slime type Rare/Unique/Boss ever since they stopped splitting into more Rares/Uniques/Bosses-In short, I'm not sure there's enough risk. But it's not a big issue either way to me.

But you have severely escalating difficulty now. Isn't the new sludgenest dangerous enough to threaten you?

I can safely say I've spent more time in the new sludgenest than anyone (citation: Achievements page indicating that only one person has gotten the x500 slime cheevo. According to my savegames, I got bored somewhere around 750 slimes) so I am uniquely qualified to say that level 100+ slimes are in fact more difficult than anything else in the game. (Nightmare difficulty. I presume on Insane/Madness level 100 slimes would be uninteresting.) Including the final bosses, including Atathmaton, including Linaniil. Especially considering that more will join the fight (you can manage that by avoiding the walls, but some will use Beckon and some will use Ice Wall, both of which cause you to unexpectedly get closer to the walls).

Maybe y'all haven't checked the code to see the math changes or done the math to see how it works out in practicality (note: Not trying to be condescending here. I didn't check this until I was already farming there), but somewhere around slime 480, every slime will be Unique or Boss, meaning they each drop a randart. Even WITH the cash debuff, it is still highly beneficial to farm in the sludgenest because the randarts appear to generate at the level of the boss that drops them, and it is highly probable for you to get fixed artifacts as well, including low-tier ones you may have missed or high-tier ones to finish gearing up.

I should point out that I think farming is a good thing, especially in late-game or even post-game situations. The character who was farming the sludgenest and got the x500 achievement proceeded to steamroll the rest of the game, murder the final bosses, kill Atathmaton without a second thought, and return to the sludgenest to prepare for Linaniil (who ended up being a lot less threatening than I expected).

So if sludgenest farming is to be removed, then one might as well forbid loot drops entirely except from the corrupted oozemancer. Or remove the zone's uniqueness to promote "balance." Putting a debuff on the price of the items merely prevents farming them to transmog and purchase merchant randarts, without doing anything about the randarts dropped left and right by the slimes themselves.

Solutions to the sludgenest problem:
1.) Returned to the way it was originally (lots of money available to those who clear it out)
2.) Left the way it is now (lots of power available to those who fight for a while, far more difficult than before)
3.) Removed/reduced cash debuff (lots of power AND money available to those who clear it out, still far more difficult)
4.) Removed/restricted loot drops, making cash debuff meaningless (little/no reason to enter at all aside from unlocks, cheevos, or the sheer challenge)

In addition, one can either expand access, restrict access, or leave it the same.
Expanding access (to 100% for everyone) and restricting access (30% for everyone, including Thalore) would remove the power imbalance from that race. If the problem is a racial imbalance, then the answer has nothing to do with options 1-4 above, which can be taken separately from or in addition to access modifications. Restricting access has the side effect of people not being able to plan around the sludgenest until they're fairly heavily invested in a character (level 30), and generally reducing/restricting existing content irks me.

I was discussing this with a friend, who doesn't know much about ToME but does know a lot about game design. He asked "What do you want from this zone?" and I think that's a very important question for all of us to ponder right now. What purpose does this zone fulfill? Does it exist merely to provide a place to unlock Oozemancer? Is it a late/postgame challenge zone (similar to taking a winner into the ID)? Is it a high-risk high-reward farm zone?

A similar discussion probably ought to be had about Caldera, but since that zone has much more minor balance impacts then it's perhaps a good bit less pressing. Plus it so annoys people I've heard them skip it entirely after they've unlocked it.



P.S. In its current state, I'd argue against calling it "sludgenest farming." Farming implies low-risk low-reward, tedious, grindy gameplay. The "farming" in sludgenest was some of the most challenging and interesting gameplay I had with that character.

As I understand it, the reason the dungeon isn't present for everyone is to lower EXP bloat(too many dungeons, too many dungeons people feel they need to do, too many people hitting L50 easily before Prides.), and the main reason one race gets it is so that someone can go on a run specifically for the unlock.

And the main reason it is in the game is because it is cooler to have a dedicated dungeon/boss with unique traits than just having a random boss or something similar unlock the class.

Does it exist merely to provide a place to unlock Oozemancer?

So, basically, this one.

Except that the oozes on l2 don't give XP, do they? Only the top and bottom levels give XP, and even that could be changed.

If Sludgenest "farming" really is as fun and dangerous as Waladil says, it should probably be available to every character.