ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

If we discount the story reward for saving Melinda the rewards for a successful rescue is an artifact and the loot for allowing her to be sacrificed is a boss drop that includes an artifact. I think these artifacts are to the same level.

That's all nice and symmetrical, but I don't think the difficulty is.

Some builds have a great deal of trouble saving Melinda because of the evasive AI on the cultists, but if you fail you get the demon to kill so the difficulty isn't a problem. The problem is that you make the decision at the beginning of the level and if you opt to save Melinda you get the reward at the end. Preventing the sacrifice presents the risk of Melinda dieing later on the level, but the rewards are actually slightly lower. This is compounded, especially if you don't have heal other, by forcing the player to either accept increased risks of losing Melinda and the reward artifact or avoid about half of a level that has pretty high chest frequency.

Then there's the prodigy for letting Melinda be sacrificed. There seems to be no advantage to rescuing Melinda except not fighting a demon who is generally less dangerous than his cultists.

Would it not make sense for the reward for the riskier path to be better? I think if it is anywhere appropriate to screen rewards for appropriateness it's here. I think it's already yellow artifact only (perhaps at one time they were considered better than orange, but I don't think that's the case now) so hard coded class biases could be used instead of trying to actually assess the usefulness of the item.

Atarlost wrote:Then there's the prodigy for letting Melinda be sacrificed. There seems to be no advantage to rescuing Melinda except not fighting a demon who is generally less dangerous than his cultists.

You also get a live-in readhead to decorate your fortress.

Atarlost wrote: Some builds have a great deal of trouble saving Melinda because of the evasive AI on the cultists, but if you fail you get the demon to kill so the difficulty isn't a problem. The problem is that you make the decision at the beginning of the level and if you opt to save Melinda you get the reward at the end. Preventing the sacrifice presents the risk of Melinda dieing later on the level, but the rewards are actually slightly lower. This is compounded, especially if you don't have heal other, by forcing the player to either accept increased risks of losing Melinda and the reward artifact or avoid about half of a level that has pretty high chest frequency.

You can dig a serpent like tunnel below the chamber and store Melinda there until you clear the level. You can teleport away. You can use a move infusion to duck behind 2 corners. Hell, even having a move speed bonus is usually enough for her to lose you. Clear the level, then come back.

Would it not make sense for the reward for the riskier path to be better? I think if it is anywhere appropriate to screen rewards for appropriateness it's here.

If you made it all the way to that chamber, fighting the cultists doesn't pose that much of a risk, considering what you just got through. Fighting the demon gives you nothing (except access to a mediocre prodigy), saving her gives you a guaranteed artifact. The harder path is already better.

I think it's already yellow artifact only (perhaps at one time they were considered better than orange, but I don't think that's the case now) so hard coded class biases could be used instead of trying to actually assess the usefulness of the item.

Whoa, whoa, yellow artifacts are always worse than orange now? When did that happen? T3 yellows include things such as Umbraphage and Eye of the Forest, and that's just off the top of my head.

supermini wrote: You can dig a serpent like tunnel below the chamber and store Melinda there until you clear the level. You can teleport away. You can use a move infusion to duck behind 2 corners. Hell, even having a move speed bonus is usually enough for her to lose you. Clear the level, then come back.

So if you abuse pathfinding you can remove the risk. ToME is balanced with an eye towards removing exploits not assuming them.

If you made it all the way to that chamber, fighting the cultists doesn't pose that much of a risk, considering what you just got through. Fighting the demon gives you nothing (except access to a mediocre prodigy), saving her gives you a guaranteed artifact. The harder path is already better.

Boss drops should always include a yellow or orange artifact. I don't think Kryj-Fellan is an exception. Admittedly I haven't fought him in a while because I'm a sucker for story rewards, but I'm pretty sure I remember typical dungeon boss loot.

I think it's already yellow artifact only (perhaps at one time they were considered better than orange, but I don't think that's the case now) so hard coded class biases could be used instead of trying to actually assess the usefulness of the item.

Whoa, whoa, yellow artifacts are always worse than orange now? When did that happen? T3 yellows include things such as Umbraphage and Eye of the Forest, and that's just off the top of my head.

You're not parsing right. Yellow is not now better than orange. There are a few stand outs, most of which are only good for a few classes. Which also tends to be the situation with oranges.

Atarlost wrote: So if you abuse pathfinding you can remove the risk. ToME is balanced with an eye towards removing exploits not assuming them.

Teleporting away is hardly bug abuse. If you just want to do things the hard way, that's your problem.

Boss drops should always include a yellow or orange artifact. I don't think Kryj-Fellan is an exception. Admittedly I haven't fought him in a while because I'm a sucker for story rewards, but I'm pretty sure I remember typical dungeon boss loot.

Bosses don't drop boss artifacts unless they are specifically told to do so. They usually have a specific artifact which can be randomly replaced with an artifact of the same tier. The demon boss is like the dragon boss in the underwater cave in the east - you can luck out into an artifact but most of the time you won't get one, just a random assortment of items.

I personally prefer that the "moral" path is both harder and less rewarding :)

Ah, a Kantian.