ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Apparently, archers lack in viability for higher difficulties, and are only semi-feasible on normal. They are also bland, compared to other classes. So chat bounced a few ideas around to improve archer a bit. (Currently, there's almost no reason to use standard archer over Temporal Warden, which is how chat started.)

Issues with archers are primarily... Crowds and damage burst. They have no real crowd control, kiting ability, or some form of damage mitigation.

To resolve this, first suggestion was adding a damage reduction to ranged attacks to the slow motion talent. (Number bounced around was 7% per talent level, raw, to each ranged attack be it arrow or spell.) Logically, that makes sense, if you see a arrow/bolt/stone/fireball coming toward you, you have a chance to at least partially move out of the way, so instead of it making a hole in your gut, it merely wings your shoulder. Still hurts, still bad, but it's not the lethal blow it might have been.

Beyond that, a few ideas to spice archers up were tossed around. Unfortunately, only 3 of them, so we need a fourth for a tree.

Arcing shots - (Sustain) Causes your standard arrows/stones/bolts from the shoot talent (not other talents) to 'arc' and target an enemy in the midst of a crowd, rather then hitting the first one on it's travel path. Possible downsides to the sustain were an increase in firing time (from 60-80 to 70-90. Or possibly 80-100, depending. And consensus was to let slings do this as well. So 60 to 70/80, 80 to 90/100.) Alternatively, another idea was decreasing projectile travel speed (which might logically fit better for a shot that has to travel an arc, rather then a straight line path). Both would counterbalance the ability to pick the dangerous mages/archers out of a crowd while they hide behind there meatshields. But you still have that extra bit of oomph.

Shoot'N'Scoot - Active. If the name doesn't give it away, Move in a direction of choice, and fire an arrow at enemy of choice simultaneously. A sort of Hack'N'Back for archers. Would help well with kiting, but it's logically sensible for an archer to fire a few passing shots at an enemy as they run away. Ideally, an accuracy penalty for this 'running shot' would be applied, although exact amount seems to be in question. Probably a flat penalty, but then a cooldown that lowers with increased investment.

Ambush - Sustain. Definitely the biggest gimmick, I'm eyeing the possibility of a stealth-like sustain. Something that would run off dex (with the rest of the tree), but doesn't really apply any damage bonuses. (We don't want to turn them into rogues). The idea is for them to be able to choose positioning before a fight, or use it to help avoid an enemy. Again, helps with control over the battlefield by allowing you to run and kite a bit more effectively.



Thoughts? We still need a fourth talent, and anyone who wants to try and code this is welcome to it.

Why NOT just fold mundane Archers into mundane Rogues?

Rogues are cool.

To compete with the Time Warden, create an Arcane Archer and a Wilder Archer. That way the Arcane one can kite with Phase Door / icy terrain / whatever, and the Wilder one can kite with summons / moss / whatever.

Yeah, archers are just ... boring, and you can't fix that by making them stronger. The game no longer has a generic fighter class; why does it need a generic archery class?

Frankly, at this point I would prefer to see bows and slings taken out of the game altogether and replaced with something more interesting from the steampunk Orc campaign. To me, they're way too "generic fantasy" to be interesting. That's a personal preference, of course, but they're also ridiculously counterintuitive. Why does it take less time to notch, aim, and fire an arrow than it does to swing a sword? Why is it that one of the best uses for slings is as a melee weapon?

Again, my personal preferences may be distorting my judgment here. I don't like fantasy settings much, and bows have always been one of the things I like least about them. To me, the idea of firing bits of wood in a world with magic swords, firey fireballs of fire, sentient blobs of sludge and dwarves that turn into rock giants just seems ... outclassed.

I've got some ideas for an archery tweak set, like I've done with Rogue/Wyrmic.

The problem is that it's sitting behind the Marauder tweak set, which in turn was sitting behind two other projects I decided to do first. >_> At least those two are finally finished up, but there's another project I've been backburnering too...

I don't think entirely ditching them is the right answer, though; While they're sorta boring, there is potential there to make them an entirely offense-oriented ranged fighter, even more extreme than Corruptor in this regard-they already do comparable damage long-term.

They just need more of a utility offense skillset.

One of the ideas I've been mentally tossing around is the inclusion of a Cunning based Powders skillset, that would allow them to make unique area/elemental/etc. effects with various special shots. Kinda like Poisons, only less passive and more active.

Early chinese fireworks? Gunpowder (or some magic freezing/acidic/light/dark/whatever powder) and a fuse attached to an arrow, it explodes on contact? Could work.

I also still advocate adding heavy artillery in the form of crossbows, for more build variety, but that's another discussion entirely.

I think that people are underestimating Aim/Rapid shot if they think TW's are strictly better. At high levels, Aim gives practically 100% crit chance, and Rapid Shot gives ~75% more DPS with a category point invested.

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:Issues with archers are primarily... Crowds and damage burst. They have no real crowd control, kiting ability, or some form of damage mitigation.

They can deal with crowds quite well with Scatter Shot + Volley of Arrows, and I don't think that they really need damage mitigation, as they can just kill stuff fast enough. Kiting would be a good thing to add, though. Maybe modify shoot and scoot into a timed effect that shot once per turn (at the nearest/random enemy), and broke if you did anything other than moved?

Another idea would be to nerf Rapid Shot's effects a bit, and give it a movespeed boost.

Or else a sustain/passive that gave you a (very weak) wild speed effect every time you shot.

Aim and Rapid Shot are both really good at different points in the game, to boot. Aim gives an insane damage boost early, once you get into the habit of turning it on for everything notable(I set it to a high number so I could get used to hitting 1 and then mashing attacks).

Meanwhile, Rapid Shot leverages better later, when the ammo on your quivers gets decently sized.

You can also improve Rapid Shot massively by using Precise Strikes with it; It negates most of the downside.

They do have a kind of damage mitigation, too; It's called status off absolutely ridiculous Accuracy. 40% slowed enemies don't get as much done, neither do stunned or blinded enemies, and it's very easy to get 80+ Accuracy on an Archer. ** isn't impossible at all.

They just need more stuff like this. They're not bad, and they're more unique than I thought before clearing one, for sure... but their game is boring.

I agree with the original poster, and the argument basically sums down to: 1) Archers lack ranged damage mitigation/control of any sort. 2) They lack meaningful kiting abilities (they naturally only have... disengage?). 3) they're pretty bland and unfun. 4) TW's are better in every possible way as Archers, excepting perhaps slight burst damage. TW's also have an AOE slow, to address Sages point. They have Haste, to counteract some of the talent specific dps. They have Damage smearing, for ranged mitigation. They have infinite methods of kiting, starting from passive 50% movespeed boost and going to their many TP's.

So, adding a new tree, as was suggested? Sure, I think they along with Brawlers could use some love in this regard. They actually already have fairly limited tree selection. I'd like to throw in my idea for a easier fix, though:

Give them the Trap tree, and ideally some mobility based generic tree. The trap tree is both, judging from chat, rarely used by rogues (who already have stealth as their unique thing), and it actually would be even better/make more sense for Archers. Flavor wise: Bear traps! Archers I imagine as hunters, makes sense. Utility wise: It adds to their ability to kite, as they can lay down traps in the way. Also, lure is a form of damage mitigation, can absorb some shots and move people around. Ranged mitigation: Sticky smoke, is an amazing and underutilized skill. It would work even better for Archers than for rogues. Reducing vision range of ranged mobs so they couldn't destroy you.

grmblfzzz wrote: Give them the Trap tree, and ideally some mobility based generic tree. The trap tree is both, judging from chat, rarely used by rogues (who already have stealth as their unique thing), and it actually would be even better/make more sense for Archers. Flavor wise: Bear traps! Archers I imagine as hunters, makes sense. Utility wise: It adds to their ability to kite, as they can lay down traps in the way. Also, lure is a form of damage mitigation, can absorb some shots and move people around. Ranged mitigation: Sticky smoke, is an amazing and underutilized skill. It would work even better for Archers than for rogues. Reducing vision range of ranged mobs so they couldn't destroy you.

Turning Archers into Hunters could be cool. It would make sense that for them to get the predator talent tree too (even though it's cursed right now, I think).

While giving them some level of Traps and Mobility(1.1 on both?) wouldn't hurt, it's probably not a full fix.

Would help them out a lot, though. I've basically always supported Traps for Archer whenever it comes up; It could be locked and it would still be fine for them.

Definately a class area I would like to tackle.
Archers aren't bad, just boring. A bit like Rogues, except I can get somewhere with Archers.
Would be good to pool Rogues, Archers and Brawler together and then pull out some interesting combos.
Going the +arcane or +nature route tends to get a bit boring.

Will think more later. (I'm a Uni so I guess I should be working )

Yay double post!

I've put together a basic skeleton for two classes. So far its only existing categories remixed.

Rogue/Assassin:
technique/archery-base
technique/archery-bows
technique/archery-slings
technique/archery-training
technique/dualweapon-attack
technique/combat-techniques
technique/mobility
cunning/stealth
cunning/lethality
cunning/poisons
cunning/survival
cunning/scoundrel
7 class categories, 4 generic categories

Fighter/Hunter
technique/archery-base
technique/archery-bows
technique/archery-slings
technique/archery-utility
technique/dualweapon-training
technique/field-control
technique/combat-veteran
technique/combat-training
cunning/trapping
cunning/survival
cunning/tactical
cunning/dirty
cursed/predator minus the hate bar
9 class categories, 3 generics.

Oh, archery + dual wielding+predator tree... That reminds me something

Only golem-like animal companion is missing to make it 100% D&D ranger.

Still like the concept of the hunter more than current archers

i like the idea of traps for archers. i have also always wished they had a 'throat shot', to temporarily silence mobs. If you choose slings, then you have two talents that blind, one to cripple, pinning shot, and a knockback talent, silence is something i think archers could really use.

Strongpoint wrote:Oh, archery + dual wielding+predator tree... That reminds me something

Only golem-like animal companion is missing to make it 100% D&D ranger.

Still like the concept of the hunter more than current archers

Agree, and I see nothing wrong with a Wilder / Hunter type who uses Archery and nature stuff.

Also I think there ought to be a Cursed + Stealth type, which in my head is a Shadow Hunter... maybe this could also be a Shadow Sniper. Centered around the Predator tree, since that tree is awesome. He'd use the Cursed / Darkness effect to break LoS and re-enter Stealth.

Finally, the arcane archery type... maybe call him the Stormbow? He'd get spells to push people away, spells to Daze / Confuse / Slow enemies, and a movement speed boost. Maybe center him on Air spells, since Lightning can already Daze in certain circumstances, and air control is a good excuse to make fun Archery spells.