ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Currently Arcane Combat has three issues I can see, in ascending order of how confident I am that the issues are real problems rather than balance compromises.

First, the whole tree is strength unlocked but mostly scales with cunning. There may be balance reasons for this, but it does weaken staff and dual wield builds relative to two handed and shield builds. Apart from Magical Combat and parts of Combat Training everything is either cunning or magic based or based off the maximum of dex and strength.

Second, it only works with three spells. This is worst for adventurers who can't be expected to be balanced, but Pulverizing Auger has the same cooldown as Earthen Missiles and would make the Earth school a more viable path and Channel Staff is available from an unlock. It could also be interesting with Flameshock if not deemed unbalanced, but I'd consider a cooldown 6 limit to match its slowest current spell reasonable.

Third, and most importantly, it's rigid. You cannot set it to not trigger flame when fighting fire resistance (or worse fire healed) enemies without turning it off entirely and putting a point in a new triggerable spell will reduce your damage if you had significant investment in another spell (most obviously at level 10 if you unlock the Stone tree actually putting a point in Earthen Missiles is usually bad). I'd really like to be able to take spells out of Arcane Combat rotation so it won't waste mana against high resistance enemies or on 1 point Earthen Missiles when I have 5 point lightning and/or flame.

Arcane Combat was first added back when Pulverizing Auger was just Dig. I'd definitely support swapping Earthen Missiles for the Auger so that we've got three beams proccing. It'd also make it possible to go pure physical from the start, since Pulverizing Auger is available much earlier than Earthen Missiles. I'm not sure what to do about the whole "buying a new talent can weaken you" problem. It could be changed to proc level 1 versions of the talents even if you don't have them (so that building the talent won't leave you worse off). I'm not sure how that would affect balance, though.

Pulverizing Auger is a 2nd level talent, so maybe we can add Manabolt as a fourth option.

For the Adventurers, maybe an undocumented option to trigger Fire Alchemy / Heat, Nightfall / Invoke Darkness, and Temporal / Congeal Time?

First, the whole tree is strength unlocked but mostly scales with cunning. There may be balance reasons for this, but it does weaken staff and dual wield builds relative to two handed and shield builds. Apart from Magical Combat and parts of Combat Training everything is either cunning or magic based or based off the maximum of dex and strength.

There are definitely balance reasons; Without limitation, both of those options would largely be better than twohander and sword/shield builds. Dualwielding has the highest long term damage, and would be much better short term if it wasn't for the heavy MAD, while staves tend to do quite a lot of damage lategame damage and give you tons of spellpower, too.

Second, it only works with three spells. This is worst for adventurers who can't be expected to be balanced, but Pulverizing Auger has the same cooldown as Earthen Missiles and would make the Earth school a more viable path and Channel Staff is available from an unlock. It could also be interesting with Flameshock if not deemed unbalanced, but I'd consider a cooldown 6 limit to match its slowest current spell reasonable.

Auger would, the way the mechanics work, randomly punch holes in walls when you physical. (The spell targets the farthest point past the target, so beams will keep on going past them.) This might be a little questionable for strategic reasons.

Flameshock...no, that's too strong, unless you alter how Arcane Combat works to start with.

Third, and most importantly, it's rigid. You cannot set it to not trigger flame when fighting fire resistance (or worse fire healed) enemies without turning it off entirely and putting a point in a new triggerable spell will reduce your damage if you had significant investment in another spell (most obviously at level 10 if you unlock the Stone tree actually putting a point in Earthen Missiles is usually bad). I'd really like to be able to take spells out of Arcane Combat rotation so it won't waste mana against high resistance enemies or on 1 point Earthen Missiles when I have 5 point lightning and/or flame.

That is an issue, yeah(though it's worthy of note that unless you're comparing an L5 spell to L1 Earthen Missiles, Earthen Missiles usually wins on raw damage in most situations, and even then it does more upfront damage than L5 Flame[since a lot of that is in burn] and more reliable damage than Lightning due to its range.).

I'm not sure what to do about the whole "buying a new talent can weaken you" problem. It could be changed to proc level 1 versions of the talents even if you don't have them (so that building the talent won't leave you worse off). I'm not sure how that would affect balance, though.

I like this idea quite a lot, actually, but I've been looking for ways to kneecap the single-spell-being-better(particularly Earthen Missiles) issue for a while.

It doesn't really mess with balance much due to what I said above, though it does force some investment in Lightning/Flame for an optimal physical.

I honestly think that's better than forcing no investment in them for an optimal physical, as they both start trees, though...the optimal damage Arcane Blade is both unecessary(as someone that cleared easily, before they got some of their current buffs, without the optimal damage) and boring(cuts out large swaths of two trees).

Having said that, there would become a negative psychological effect; People would think their physical isn't optimal unless they buy the Stone category for Earthen Missiles. Maybe it can still skip that until you buy it. Or maybe it could just take (Arcane Combat/2) for your talent level if you don't own the talent(or if the talent's level is lower); That's a fast and interesting fix.

For the Adventurers, maybe an undocumented option to trigger Fire Alchemy / Heat, Nightfall / Invoke Darkness, and Temporal / Congeal Time?

Heh, that would be hilarious, though it would be even better if it triggered Dust to Dust/Turn Back The Clock/Soul Rot/Bone Spear/Moonlight Ray too.

This is the sort of thing someone should make up as a small addon, rather than expecting DarkGod to code it, though.

Arcane Combat used to proc Flameshock but the problem was the high mana cost. It meant you'd avoid buying Flameshock early game because a Flameshock proc would quickly eat through your mana reserves and leave you vulnerable. It's better for Flameshock to be left for when you want to make a tactical decision about stunning enemies.

You can stop Flame proccing by casting it separately. Also the mana cost is fairly low and forgettable even when fighting a bunch of fire monsters.

SageAcrin wrote:That is an issue, yeah(though it's worthy of note that unless you're comparing an L5 spell to L1 Earthen Missiles, Earthen Missiles usually wins on raw damage in most situations, and even then it does more upfront damage than L5 Flame[since a lot of that is in burn] and more reliable damage than Lightning due to its range.).

I'm not sure what to do about the whole "buying a new talent can weaken you" problem. It could be changed to proc level 1 versions of the talents even if you don't have them (so that building the talent won't leave you worse off). I'm not sure how that would affect balance, though.

I like this idea quite a lot, actually, but I've been looking for ways to kneecap the single-spell-being-better(particularly Earthen Missiles) issue for a while.

It doesn't really mess with balance much due to what I said above, though it does force some investment in Lightning/Flame for an optimal physical.

I honestly think that's better than forcing no investment in them for an optimal physical, as they both start trees, though...the optimal damage Arcane Blade is both unecessary(as someone that cleared easily, before they got some of their current buffs, without the optimal damage) and boring(cuts out large swaths of two trees).

Having said that, there would become a negative psychological effect; People would think their physical isn't optimal unless they buy the Stone category for Earthen Missiles. Maybe it can still skip that until you buy it. Or maybe it could just take (Arcane Combat/2) for your talent level if you don't own the talent(or if the talent's level is lower); That's a fast and interesting fix.

For the Adventurers, maybe an undocumented option to trigger Fire Alchemy / Heat, Nightfall / Invoke Darkness, and Temporal / Congeal Time?

Heh, that would be hilarious, though it would be even better if it triggered Dust to Dust/Turn Back The Clock/Soul Rot/Bone Spear/Moonlight Ray too.

This is the sort of thing someone should make up as a small addon, rather than expecting DarkGod to code it, though.

I think you overestimate Earthen Missiles. The damage is close to equal level Flame until level 5, but it doesn't beam. Unless it's level 5 and there isn't another enemy standing behind your target the advantage is that it's less resisted and more stackable, not that it does more damage. I know I'm not doing much damage boost stacking at levels 10-14 when the problem is most severe.

I'm not sure why letting the player set use parameters when they activate the talent isn't an option. Possibly something like the pet talent priority interface, maybe using the talent priorities directly even if the talent can't have its own data structure.

If single spell builds are a problem it's insoluble the way things stand currently. It seems to always be better to specialize when casting because later spells in a tree are usually more interesting and spells tend to reward high investment since they scale more on talent level and less on equipment than weapon talents, and they often have cappers at talent level 5 and the area effects tend to scale cubically. Apart from the tribeam trick picking up a second generic spell rarely looks near as good as picking up the next nifty spell and Arcane Blades don't need to, and indeed can't, tribeam because they have other things to do with their actions.