ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Currently, of all the races available in tome, they only differ in initial stats and race specific talents, and presumably balanced by xp modifiers. The small differences means most of the races overlap significantly, which make them lack character.

My idea is to increase the difference between races by introducing two mechanisms: different stat caps and different cost for stats, so each race will be more suitable for certain classes. Just take for example, dwarfs may have a cap of 90 for strength, 80 for constitution and 80 for willpower, while have a 40 for dexterity, 50 for cunning and 40 for magic. Halflings may have 50 for strength and yeeks max out at 40. For stats, say dwarfs pay 2 points for 3 strength, halflings pay 5 points for 4 strength and yeeks may have to pay 2 points for 1 strength. Again, the races would presumably be balanced by xp modifiers.

While definitely a good idea, a game balance by XP modifier isn't exactly the best way of going about things in a closed-level system. Open level, sure, but when the max level is 50 and most (if not all) legit characters will hit that by end-game, it really is no longer a balance and is instead a hindrance/annoyance.

I'd rather not see these changes as it would really limit what classes each race can effectively play as. Every dwarf shouldn't be a berserker or bulwark, I like dwarf mages or rouges sometimes. The way things work now, that's fine; it's just a little harder in the beginning because of stat bonuses/penalties. But with your system, they would be constantly struggling all game long.

If you want more racial differences then tweak their racial talents or give them more racial stats, like resists or penetrations.

I think there is a certain elegance in the way ToME currently handles stats-- one point, one increase works.

Different stat caps might be fun; I think the numbers that you've suggested are a little overboard though. As soon as some race can have Strength 80, you've created too strong of an incentive to use that race for certain builds. (Note that that might be okay for some races; Shalore are not a fave race for Archmage, and a bit of Magic cap push could change that, probably in a thematically appropriate way.) It changes the balance a little bit, but that doesn't strike me as too awful. ToME isn't built around balance anyways. If people enjoy min-maxing, this is one more way for them to indulge that; if they don't, they can still play their Dwarf archmagi.

It should also be noted that changing stat caps only increases the power of builds; it's not something you can balance with lower caps on other attributes.

All that said, I think that the races are plenty distinct; their starting attributes certainly shape the play of your first few levels, and their racial trees make them distinct in a way that adding and subtracting points from various stats never could.

I like that there's a baseline of characters that don't have huge differences.

I think huge differences, like stat caps and levels and etc. should be handled by more advanced races. That's what it feels like ToME lacks on, if anything; Only Skeleton and Ghoul are really weird.

While definitely a good idea, a game balance by XP modifier isn't exactly the best way of going about things in a closed-level system. Open level, sure, but when the max level is 50 and most (if not all) legit characters will hit that by end-game, it really is no longer a balance and is instead a hindrance/annoyance.

It's a constant short term negative. Even if you grind every character possible up to L50 before Dreadfell(something which I don't think is actually possible), you're facing constant, heavy risk by grinding in Farportals.

Yes, at the very end of the game, all characters hit 50, or can with a little grinding. EXP Modifiers are about before that.

Dunno, I usually at about level 44 on Thalore, after doing everything (except things like Athomathon, Oozemancer, Kill Room, Clone, etc and High Peak itself).

nate wrote:ToME isn't built around balance anyways. If people enjoy min-maxing, this is one more way for them to indulge that; if they don't, they can still play their Dwarf archmagi.

Granted, my suggestion would post some limits on class choices for different races, and perhaps the numbers I tossed out are a little over the top. That's not a problem, these can be always changed.

The thing is, there aren't a whole lot of dwarven wizards, within and without tome. Or elven fighters (other than LoTR, but elves in LoTR are simply superhuman). It suggests that certain races are predisposed to certain classes, and a good reason for that would be different stat caps.

Making certain races better at certain classes is a bad idea.
Why have the ability to select race and class if you are going to be punished for not following stereotypes?

I'd prefer to see a bit more divergence middle and late game, based on race/meta class/faction choices.
I will eventually get around to writing something like that myself.

More unique races - yes
Stat caps - yes
Different stat increase cost - maybe, but better something different. Instead of flat bonus to stat, how about a % bonus. For example currently +1 could be changed to +10%.

HousePet wrote:I'd prefer to see a bit more divergence middle and late game, based on race/meta class/faction choices.

Now that is a really cool idea. You've got my curiosity peaked.

the different stat cap doesnt have to be huge could be as small as +10 - 10
or, another optiond would be aditional cost AFTER cap so if you want to raise above 60 you pay more points

I agree that racial differences should be more distinct, but also that they should be more subtle than stat caps or stat cost changes. I love the differences between undead and the other races. The thematic differences are huge, but still subtle. I wouldn't mind seeing some auto-factions, like Shaloren can't go AM and Thaloren automatically do if they aren't mages, just as some examples. I'd also like to see some race-specific prodigies, not to replace the current list, but maybe add another row that's racial, with one racial prodigy option for each stat. I already like the differences in racial talents, though I do wish more of the talents were more useful. As it is, I usually only put something like 1/1/5/1 into racials for everything but the undead.

Planetus wrote:I'd also like to see some race-specific prodigies, not to replace the current list, but maybe add another row that's racial, with one racial prodigy option for each stat.

I was thinking about something like this.

Create 6 generic or class talent category named "Stat/ Greater XXX".

For example (random ideas):

Stat / Greater Strength:
Tier 1: Passive: Adds + 2 or +3 strength per level. Or Sustain that adds x% str.
Tier 2: Passive: Adds XXX critical damage modifier.
Tier 3: Passive: Adds x% str damage modifer to weapons.
Tier 4: Passive: Adds x armor.

Stat / Greater Dexterity:
Tier 1: Passive: Adds + 2 or +3 dexterity per level. Or Sustain that adds x% dex.
Tier 2: Passive: Adds defense, ranged defense. Or maybe attack speed.
Tier 3: Passive: Adds x% dex mod to weapons.
Tier 4: Sustain: Cheat death: User dies at -XXX HP.

To obtain these could be race specific prodigies (Greater Strength could be obtained by Cornac, Dwarf, Ghouls and skeletons. Greater Dex by Cornac,Shalore, Thalore, Halfings and Skeletons, and so on..) Cornacs could apply for all of them to keep their versatility.

Or maybe add a quest where player could pick one depending on race...

This way races could be differentiated a bit more, but not too much.

You know, I find myself thinking that would make an interesting concept to have as an extremely late unlock.

Such as, say, before High Peak, or upon hitting L40(or even 50).

That way, people have to decide if they want to use the few points they have left to invest in those categories, or if they want to save points for a very lategame advantage.

Would also make for another way to differentiate Cornac, just let them unlock all the higher end categories.

Having said that, just basing it on stats seems...kinda boring, maybe something more like Greater Arcane Affinity(Which Shalore/Undead could be good at, boosting resistance to Arcane/all magic elements to a lesser degree, magical damage, magical critical rate, etc.), Greater Physical Might(Dwarves/Thalore, grants more physical damage/durability/etc.), Greater Mental Prowess(Mind damage stuff, Will/Cun, etc.), etc.

Then again, it sounds an awful lot like the role Prodigies have. Maybe just making them Prodigies would work the best, with specific racial requirements before you can take the Prodigy, which in turn unlocks a special high powered skill category. That sounds neat and easy to balance, thinking on, and would work best with the stat version...

How about if racial power instead of being a category (using generic points, which affects classes with more generic categories) they are moved to an special area called "racial" (a button next to the prodigies) and they use "Race" points?

All races start with 1 race point free, 1 racial talent acquired, and every 5 level also grants a racial point. (for a total of 12)

In this tab all racial powers are displayed. Each class could have around 8-12 (depending on race) and have levels, depending on talents.

For example, cornac first racial talent should be the +1 category point (just 1 level). Another one could add a +2 to an stat (could have 3 or 4 levels). Other one could add class points or generic points.

Higher racial talents could be what the they have now, but in parts. For example, overseers of nation could be divided into 3 talents, one increasing the sight radius, other one the infravision and the other one increasing the heighented senses. They also could get a mag bonus score here...

This way we could add a lot of differentiation between races, and would be an incentive to go more than 1/1/5/1 in racial powers, because they don't consume generic points and also adding more build differences.