ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Due to the random nature of the worms completely exploring floors is very tedious yet is encouraged by the above-average chest density and good floor drops. Also since its hard to verify that there isn't a small pocket left unexplored somewhere I can never quite shake the feeling that I've left the Blood of Life or a similar high impact early artifact lying around somewhere. This makes the Lair something of a chore, especially since it occurs relatively early and needs to be replayed often due to yasd.

Would it be possible to change the item algrithm on Sandworm Lair to only drop chests/loot in the sandpits containing staircases? This wouldn't change the difficulty nor the mechanic itself but would make it that much quicker to finish the dungeon whilst still playing reasonably optimally.

It's probably possible.

To do it. Now, making it make sense, that might be hard. I like the idea, but is there some way to actually explain the magical teleporting loot and the stairwells full of chests...?

Makes as much sense as treasure chests in a sand pit.

I'd prefer for map to just start explored, then you would know where all caverns are. This place is horrid without any mapping abilities and/or low lite radius.

I like how it is - punishes overly compulsive people. It has important life lessons!

The golden chests should maybe be removed though - they make little sense and the rewards are perhaps a bit too compelling.

The chests are fine. If people are having to deal with risk/reward, better to learn the lessons early than late.

I've heard someone say they should perhaps be cosmetically corpses instead of chests, for Sandworm, and that seems reasonable-after all, there wasn't any of the treasure mentioned in the description of Sandworm before thoses chests.

There is nice lore relating the chests to the location. I really liked this change, and the related ones to the Labyrinth and Trapped!

It would be nice if you had some way of knowing whether you'd found all of the chests - for example, have a special mob spawn with some text ("The corpse of the last adventurer on this level explodes in a sea of wyrms...")

SageAcrin wrote:The chests are fine. If people are having to deal with risk/reward, better to learn the lessons early than late.

Except there isn't any risk once you learn the gimmick involved. It's tedium/reward, and teaches people to loiter around for 45+ minutes in case they missed something or run greater odds being gibbed later due to not having that teensy bit better equipment.

I like it the way it is, and you can usually tell with a relative degree of certainty whether or not there is another room, after you've done it a few times. While I wouldn't be averse to replacing 'chests' with 'corpses of former adventurers to loot', with the same risk/reward situation as chests; taking it out completely or just making it all appear in the room with stairs is... not right. The risk is there for a reason (and if you think there is no risk, wait till you open a chest and have 3 rares pop out, then try to run through collapsing tunnels to avoid them, never sure which tunnel they will pop out of next... Once lost 2 lives trying to kite around and avoid a particularly nasty rare (corruptor/ano mix, IIRC. HUGE crit rate.) that kept going invisible somehow, only to pop up in another room, somewhere else, where my options for running were EXTREMELY limited, courtesy of the worms.

If the 'tedium' of waiting for a worm bothers you, just pick up the zomnibus addon for the 'time rest' addition, and use that. Makes waiting on sandworms so much easier.

Except there isn't any risk once you learn the gimmick involved. It's tedium/reward, and teaches people to loiter around for 45+ minutes in case they missed something or run greater odds being gibbed later due to not having that teensy bit better equipment.

That's not really fair. If you don't have good crowd control, it's quite possible to get stuck in a hallway and crushed, and there's some real risk in the gimmick in that regard.

I mean, I don't die there much, but I die there more than Old Forest or most of the starter dungeons, and I don't feel like those should be pulled from the game or anything.

(Also, worrying that much about your gear is silly. Even if you found a really good long term, say, Voratun randart boots or something, chances are that's not the only, or best, option you'd find, or that you couldn't replace it eventually with a merchant artifact, etc. Loot the place, sure, but don't run around for 45 minutes on the floor trying to make sure you have everything...)

I say keep it the way it is. It's the most unique dungeon in the game, and the generous loot is a nice reward for the risk involved, especially for new players.

Infinitum wrote:Except there isn't any risk once you learn the gimmick involved. It's tedium/reward, and teaches people to loiter around for 45+ minutes in case they missed something or run greater odds being gibbed later due to not having that teensy bit better equipment.

Agreed. It's not difficult or risky, it's tedious. The only thing similar to it in ToME is dancing around on the world map so you don't run into adventurer parties (who, incidentally and no doubt due to the nature of random walks, tend to congregate on the SWL beach).

Maybe make the Sandworm lair more like the new Maze? Only two levels with the first level larger and a little more dangerous (tunnels collapse faster, more mobs, etc.) and take all the chests out so people don't feel the need to find every nook and cranny. Then have the second level be smaller, with more chests, permanent tunnels, and the queen.

Why is everyone so negative about the chests? Pirates would naturally bury their treasure on accessible beaches rather than deep inland mountains. I'm sure they're hopping mad when they can't later find their booty, lost in the endlessly shifting sand churned by burrowing sandworms.

Just think of it this way. Even in more "regular" dungeons there may be hidden vaults somewhere that you couldn't find...