ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Having playing this game for few weeks, getting 2 roguelike wins in process, I got a bit unsatisfied with how the escorts and their skill unlocks works. From the realism perspective, learning a skill in a blink of eye just doesn't make sense. Escorting alchemist to portal, only for him to turn around before jumping in and going 'Hey, if you bend your fingers this way, you can turn people into stone, fantastic trick for parties!' just feels... off. The same could be said of AntiMagic, why would I risk my life trying to protect said person instead of smashing his brain on spot? Or at the very least, knocking him out and dragging to portal if they really need him alive. Then you can add 'future you' that you are sending to death even that it should already know you will betray yourself and it gets very weird. This is rather minor all in all, and I understand all of this was made for gameplay reasons, more than fine to me. There is more important reason for me though.

Since I'm getting more and more into mechanics, my inner self forces me into min-maxing and preplanning the characters I'm going to play next. For most of them, they can make a good use of escortees talents, in some cases they are practically required (Mindstar cursed), however randomness of who you get make it rather hard to make it work. Early on, I just stormed most T1s searching for the escorts I needed, resetting if they didn't show up. This, unfortunately, became rather hard and tedious when you wanted two or more specific skills, or played thing like Yeek Cursed (it takes me about 10 tries to get one off island, on normal diff). So I learned about save scumming before entrances to roll just right person to escort. This does feel a bit like cheating though, so in the end, I'm torn between wanting to make a perfect legitimate character, and not using questionable tactics. That's why this rebalance/change idea came into my head.

The basic idea requires character to have Trans Chest and resolves around Fortress and... something you could call token system. There is, like before, 9 escorts generated in the game. However, there is never a repeat of any person you met. 1 Anorithil, 1 Alchemist, 1 Seer, etc. in game. Since only 8 of them are currently, another type of adventurer, Summoner, is added. You cannot betray any person, you either help them get to their destination, or for some unknown reason decide not to. Successfully making to the objective don't reward any skill or attribute gain, only, perhaps, a bit coins or magic item.

Additionally, you would get message 'As the 'escort' steps into portal, you notice your Transmogrification Chest start glowing and siphon energy from it. Couple seconds later it stops, forming small glowing orb that starts orbiting around it'.
This would create 'Sphere of X', plot type item, where X would be element depending on which character you escorted. Orb by itself would give minor bonus to your character (mainly for fluff), but have no other uses till you get to Fortress.
In actual fortress, there would be new device (new room, or even using core itself). The spheres you collect through would charge the machine (buffs on them 'lingering' on Trans Chest, to prevent pointless hoarding), and activate elements in it, allowing you to use this energy to boost yourself, in skills you unlock depending on elements you collect. That would allow, in the end, to learn from every category that is already available in the game (multiple times included), without the need to scum for specific escorts, while still retaining limits and making you work on your stats.

What would happen if escorted person died though? Well, cutting yourself off one of branches certainly isn't nice, and some escorts are doomed from spawn. Therefore, there would be additional system linked to Farportals. Once you unlock them, you could make Fortress 'search' for one of elements it's missing. It would generate level randomly as usual, but final boss would always drop the specific sphere, as well as possibly having one if it's class fixed to match it (so, searching for Sphere of Darkness would make one of boss classes Necromancer, Doomed or Anorithil). That would make it possible to always collect every power-up, paying failing the escorts by forcing you to risk farportal, or giving ability to unlock the element you need 'right now'.
Furthermore, collecting all of the elements would allow to gain additional Category point at high energy cost (5?) as a bonus. Then, you can gain extra energy for the machine by defeating a boss from a (normal, completely random) farportal. Given how dangerous they can be, it would be more of endgame fun, where you can continue to advance your character past level cap and gear drops. You could gain first energy point from defeating boss sitting in your farportal room, giving you round 10 points for 'perfect' play w/o need to explore rngportals.
Below, some quick sketch how could skill unlock looks like, stuff in italic is what would be, in my opinion, worthwhile addition to default unlocks, everything else can be gotten in game already.

Water - 'As you touch the drippling orb, you can feel calm of the ocean.' +10% confusion and daze resistance
Gained by Loremaster
Allows to train WISDOM, Spit Poison, Exotic Weapons Mastery, Channel Staff, Staff Mastery, Spell/Staff Combat

Darkness - 'Small ball of shadow that siphon any light around it. Placing your hand on it, shades around you seem to move away, clearing your vision'. +1 Infra-vision radius
Gained by Anorithil
Allows to train Mental save, Hymn of Detection, Heightened Senses, Arcane Eye, Piercing Sight, Spell/Divination

Mind - 'Fleshy pink sphere, sparkling with seldom lightnings. Just thinking about it gives you confidence to outsmart anyone who challenges you.' -5% chance to be critically hit
Gained by Seer
Allows to train CUNNING, Mind Sear, Sleep, Dream Walk, Telekinetic Leap, Psionic/Dreaming

Fire - 'Somehow this living flame still haven't set your backpack on fire. Suddenly, it dashes towards you and ram into your wound. Instead of burning pain you expect, there is only warm feeling, yet the skin seems to be cleared, like cauterized by flames.' +10% healing mod
Gained by Warrior
Allows to train STRENGTH, Vitality, Disarm, Heave, Technique/Field Control, Technique/Conditioning

Air - 'Swirling clouds in this sphere seem to smell like air just after lightning strike'. 10% silence resist
Gained by Thief
Allows to train DEXTERITY, Vision, Trap Handling, Hack 'n Back, Light of Foot, Cunning/Survival, Technique/Mobility

Light - 'Small orb of light slowly circling around chest in hypnotic notion. You feel at peace.' +0.5 hp/turn
Gained by Sun Paladin
Allows training MAGIC, Bathe in Light, Healing Light, Chant of Fortitude, Chant of Fortress, Celestial/Light, Celestial/Chants

Earth - 'A piece of rock orbiting around Chest like moon around a planet' - 10% stun and pinning resist
Gained by Alchemist
Allows training CONSTITUTION, Earth's Eyes, Unflinching Resolve, Stone Touch, Spell/Stone Alchemy

Time - 'At first, you don't notice anything. Then you see, just slightly, an empty bubble going around, then reversing, back and forth, seemingly randomly. Trying to catch it, it flies through your hand. For split second it travels by you, you feel... younger, on peak of your abilities, strong to carry anything world throws at you'. -5% fatigue
Gained by Temporal Explorer
Allows training Physical Save, Precognition, Spin Fate, Premonition, Chronomancy/Chronomancy

Nature - 'It's a small tree, in a bubble, trying to take roots in your Chest, how cute'. +10% Poison and Disease resistance
Gained by Summoner
Allows training Spell save, Psiblades, Thorn Grab, Nature's Touch, Track, Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild, Wild Gift/Mindstar Mastery

Chaos - 'Whatever this was before, this bulging sphere of seemingly everything is too corrupted to recognize. Perhaps it could yield some energy, assuming it won't explode before that. Was that a tentacle?'
Gained by any random Farportal boss, including first in fortress room.

And for additional addition, I would give slight different costs of getting a talent (not tree) up to 2 points, then 1 to pump it up further, just because there is so many '1 point wonders' in those.
I doubt any of these would come into game, but I need to at the very least write it off to give myself peace. And yes, it sounded much better in my head.
Anyway, whew...

Nivrax wrote:Having playing this game for few weeks, getting 2 roguelike wins in process, I got a bit unsatisfied with how the escorts and their skill unlocks works. From the realism perspective, learning a skill in a blink of eye just doesn't make sense.
Escorting alchemist to portal, only for him to turn around before jumping in and going 'Hey, if you bend your fingers this way, you can turn people into stone, fantastic trick for parties!' just feels... off. The same could be said of AntiMagic, why would I risk my life trying to protect said person instead of smashing his brain on spot? Or at the very least, knocking him out and dragging to portal if they really need him alive. Then you can add 'future you' that you are sending to death even that it should already know you will betray yourself and it gets very weird. This is rather minor all in all, and I understand all of this was made for gameplay reasons, more than fine to me. There is more important reason for me though.

Realism has no place in game mechanics discussions. ToME is not a simulation, it does not strive for realism. In a fantasy world, 'it's magic' and 'the wizard did it' can be explanations for 90% of what goes on. You can focus on almost anything and say 'this is not realistic'.

I'm not saying I like the escorts as they are right now, but that's a poor argument.

Since I'm getting more and more into mechanics, my inner self forces me into min-maxing and preplanning the characters I'm going to play next. For most of them, they can make a good use of escortees talents, in some cases they are practically required (Mindstar cursed),
however randomness of who you get make it rather hard to make it work. Early on, I just stormed most T1s searching for the escorts I needed, resetting if they didn't show up. This, unfortunately, became rather hard and tedious when you wanted two or more specific skills, or played thing like Yeek Cursed (it takes me about 10 tries to get one off island, on normal diff). So I learned about save scumming before entrances to roll just right person to escort. This does feel a bit like cheating though, so in the end, I'm torn between wanting to make a perfect legitimate character, and not using questionable tactics. That's why this rebalance/change idea came into my head.

I'd support the idea of making mindstars a learnable tree (locked) in zigur if you go AM, like combat training is now. That would solve most of the problems.

I don't think there's a lot wrong with the escort system, as long as you accept that you're going to save about 50-60% of them.

As for your idea, I think the effects that you would grant (10% status immunities, 10% heal mod, etc.) are too powerful. I'm not too keen on extra cat point or the fact that you'd eventually get all of them if you grinded enough (especially as it goes against the ToME philosophy of no grinding). Your idea needs work.

In any case, for anything complicated as that you'd have to make an addon, and if it works well it might be implemented at some point. I'd certainly try it.

supermini wrote:As for your idea, I think the effects that you would grant (10% status immunities, 10% heal mod, etc.) are too powerful. I'm not too keen on extra cat point or the fact that you'd eventually get all of them if you grinded enough (especially as it goes against the ToME philosophy of no grinding). Your idea needs work.

I wouldn't say it's entirely opposed the no grinding philosophy. We've always been able to grind in the exploratory farportal; it's balanced out by the farportal bosses, who can basically turn any farportal run into a game of Russian Roulette. Besides, there's a hard cap on how much you can ultimately benefit: One dead farportal boss compensates for one dead escort.

I agree that the implementation needs work, but the core has some merit.

I wouldn't mind seeing the current quest reward system go either. In a game where part of my fun is derived from trying to devise the strongest build possible, I absolutely despise the game permanently punishing my attempts to do so by depriving me of useful escorts or spawning them in impossible situations. Yes, the small stat boost or generic point won't make or break any character, but the fact it's irrefutably and irredeemably lost annoys me to no end. Also as has been previously touched on, the escort insta-teaching you a skill doesn't make sense in the least from a flavor perspective.

I'd have them offer you a reward of one of three ego items related to their class (actual stats and type undisclosed until you actually pick them), with a small chance of it being rare, randart or even artifact. This would maintain the difference between escort rewards whilst simultaneously making early game gearing somewhat less luck-dependent and padding the loss of the escorts getting themselves killed. Losing out on a potentially good drop still hurts early game, but unlike the current system won't have repercussions for the rest of the game.

Infinitum wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing the current quest reward system go either. In a game where part of my fun is derived from trying to devise the strongest build possible, I absolutely despise the game permanently punishing my attempts to do so by depriving me of useful escorts or spawning them in impossible situations. Yes, the small stat boost or generic point won't make or break any character, but the fact it's irrefutably and irredeemably lost annoys me to no end. Also as has been previously touched on, the escort insta-teaching you a skill doesn't make sense in the least from a flavor perspective.

Escorts are not something that you are due, and the game is not punishing you by spawning them so that they cannot be saved. Escorts are useful bonuses; if you can save 50% or more, you can consider it a good haul.

Min/maxing in the sort of way that you are describing is extremely hard to pull off in ToME: the perfect item for your build might never drop, you will never get all of the escorts you want and a chance to save them all, you might not save the wayist, or get the potions that you want from the alchemists...In another words there is a luck factor.

I'd rather not see this luck factor taken away, because it is one of the things that makes every run different, and prevents the game from going stale after many, many runs. It is also one of measures of skill in ToME: being able to work with what you have.

I likely already suggested this before but...escorts really should have some decent-ish equipment which is dropped at death. That would be make sense and be a fitting 'consolation prize'. Better than nothing but definetely not as good as a permanent stat/talent bonus.

Escorts are not something that you are due, and the game is not punishing you by spawning them so that they cannot be saved. Escorts are useful bonuses; if you can save 50% or more, you can consider it a good haul.

I'm due nine of them if memory serves. Failure to save any of them makes my character strictly worse than what it would otherwise be.

Min/maxing in the sort of way that you are describing is extremely hard to pull off in ToME: the perfect item for your build might never drop, you will never get all of the escorts you want and a chance to save them all, you might not save the wayist, or get the potions that you want from the alchemists...In another words there is a luck factor.

Admittedly, but the perfect items not dropping/selling is not something I know beforehand, and unlike escorts the possibility to find better gear is a reason to continue playing a character. Also unlike the escort quests, I can always hold off entering Halfling Ruins until I have the skillset to safeguard the Yeek (or clear 1-4 early and come back for Z later). The potions.. yeah. I kinda don't dig that setup either now that you mention it. It would be more interesting with the potions providing one-time use effects. The virtues of random permanent rewards (and repercussions) just aren't self-evident the way I see it.

I'd rather not see this luck factor taken away, because it is one of the things that makes every run different, and prevents the game from going stale after many, many runs. It is also one of measures of skill in ToME: being able to work with what you have.

Mhm. As you mentioned earlier none of the quest rewards are significant enough to radically change a run, it's mainly the principle of the thing that irks me. The extra Generic trees does provide some diversity, but even so that mechanic can be simulated by means not requiring an undisclosed number of factors to line up perfectly. Having, say, an artifact scroll giving one locked generic tree at 0.8 proficiency would still allow people to try out their Stone Alchemy Berserkers or whatever without the time investment to see whether the game lets them. And without the game occasionally kicking them in the proverbials for trying.

Again, not really opposed to the escort quests by themselves (artificial stupidity and all), just the nature of the reward system.

Maybe somebody should make a min/maxing add-on to incorporate features like this; but the normal game is not really conceived with min/maxing in mind, and this is a good thing as I see it. The game is beatable without escort skills/alchemist pots/etc. - they are thus a bonus. If you prefer to view things from the other perspective, i.e. you have a vision of a theoretically perfectly maxed character which is somehow being hindered by the current system, then you should probably expect extreme difficulty to come along with an extreme playing strategy. Or just make an add-on, or enable debugging mode and go to town.

The kind of luck that should be (mostly) eliminated from the game is the kind that makes things grossly unfair for players. In ToME this pretty much means one-shotting and the like. What is being described here is not grossly unfair, but, depending on whether you're looking at the glass as being half-empty or half-full, an annoying inconvenience or a fun chance to get some bonus skills.

Disapprove of limiting us to one of a type. Sometimes you can't benefit from anything a certain type offers, or can benefit from multiple rewards from a single escort type. For instance, alchemists love a second Ano escort. First one nets the light tree for themselves, the second gives healing light to a golem, that it can use to great effect. Extra sunpallys can pass chants to it as well, 0r buff a chant you take yourself without requiring cat point investment. I'm sure a little mental gymnastic can come up with some other options.

Infinitum wrote:I'm due nine of them if memory serves. Failure to save any of them makes my character strictly worse than what it would otherwise be.

Indeed. Availability of escorts is as much an expected part of character progression as the sandworm queen heart and worm bile. Only difference is those two items are a bit easier to acquire.

How about we change it to give more escorts, but you can only get say 5 rewards?

So even if you have a few die, you will get another chance later.
And since there is a limited number of times you can be rewarded, the minmaxers won't feel under pressure to save them every time.

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:Disapprove of limiting us to one of a type. Sometimes you can't benefit from anything a certain type offers, or can benefit from multiple rewards from a single escort type.

Reverse your argument. You want multiple Anos for tree and Light for Golem. You don't get single of that type. Can't benefit from certain escort? Have 5 Thiefs on your Archmage. Anyway, my idea wasn't to limit one reward from one type, but make escorts a way to unlock specific group of buffs, and amount of successful ones as point system that you can use to learn from this pool, multiple times included.

Some classes are doing fine without any escort trees, that means they are well balanced. Other take AM and have guaranteed fantastic generic sink. But then you have things like Archers or Alchemist who beg for additional tree, having no real way of spending them otherwise. And in case of Psiblades/Exotic mastery, having or not this particular escort is crucial to even make lightsaber/trident users which is impossible by any default class otherwise.

All classes are fine without escort buffs, bar none. If they were never in the game to begin with, nobody would miss them particularly. They are a nice bonus to get, but if you plan on basing your characters entirely around escort trees then you should see it as engaging in an interesting and difficult challenge to stretch the limits of the game, and not as being unfairly denied the chance to make your unorthodox or maximum power build. Even if one were to agree that some classes are lacking in generic trees or that there should be easier access to exotic weapons, I can't see why these issues should be addressed via an overhaul of the escort system. If alchemists are really hurting for another generic tree, then the easiest and most direct way of addressing this is to simply add another tree to the class.

Problem is that there isn't any that would fit currently in the game, unless you have idea for 4 new skills that would improve his survivality. Every class that goes Anti-magic gets 2 trees - one is an extremely potent toolset against mages (silence, resource drain) and near immunity to periodic damage effects (shield), second is amazing self healing set that gives constant high regen with no turn loss, near full-hp heal for spikes and synergise perfectly with other. The closest thing non-Aegis not-AM user classes have is Holy Light tree, which doesn't fit at all thematically outside of Pala/Anorithil, but gives that so much needed staying power, and Premonition, which gives 15-20% extra resist. I'm checking (rl) winners, and nearly every alchemist and archer have a tree from escort, most Holy and some Stone Alchemy, Reavers are in same boat but for some reason nobody even plays them.

In short, Holy have no chance to be added 'from start' as locked tree, nothing that exists for those classes that would fit to be added as locked from start is worthwile enough (Aegis on Alchemist would, but that is way too much for them), and I don't think that escort reward is worth as much as prodigy (I'd rather suicide chars for that locked tree than have one w/o such huge power boost).

The fact that there are so many alchemist winners that have taken and invested in an escort tree seems to me to suggest that the system is working quite well as it is. That said, there's nothing holding anyone back from developing a new generic tree for alchemists via an add-on. I think there's even a thread floating around on how to go about it, and DG might even add it to the game itself if it's done well enough. To get back to the main point, I just don't see any reason in trying to solve a (arguably minor, given the abundant amount of alchemist winners) class-specific problem via an overhaul of escorts. Also, if AM is too powerful at the moment (quite possible), the answer is probably not a widespread power escalation.