ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:08 am**

Scale the chance of getting a Runed Bone Giant with effective talent level.
Also scale Minion Mastery with effective talent level.
If you have Sceptre of the Archlich, you can get the effective levels of these talents up to 8, but there is no benefit for doing so.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:23 am**

The Giant change should be easy, just have it grant (Talent Level*3) odds to give a Bone Giant instead of flat rate 20%. Comes out about the same spot at 6.5, which is what usually matters.

I'd kinda like to see Bone Giants able to wield weapons you give them, which they'd drop on death, just as a general tweak to them. Would make them capable of doing actual damage.

The reason the minions skills don't currently scale past 6 is because they use a table for their formula, both Minion Mastery and Create Minions. That way, the total odds don't scale past 100%.

The best way to make that possible would be to do some strange formula that gives an arbitrary relative odds amount set to each subtype(Like, say, 55-Talent Level*9 odds for a Deteriorated Skeleton Warrior), then would RNG a roll against the entire pool.

But it's probably harder than just adding 7/8 rows to the table.

My ideas for the two:

Create Minions:

Code: Select all

	elseif cl >= 7 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=20, a_skel_warrior=20, skel_archer=8, skel_m_archer=12, skel_mage=15, ghoul=0, ghast=15, ghoulking=10 }
	elseif cl >= 8 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=15, a_skel_warrior=22, skel_archer=5, skel_m_archer=15, skel_mage=18, ghoul=0, ghast=10, ghoulking=15 }

Minion Mastery:

Code: Select all

	elseif cl >= 7 then
		return { vampire=2, m_vampire=8, g_wight=6, b_wight=6, dread=8, lich=4 }
	elseif cl >= 8 then
		return { vampire=0, m_vampire=10, g_wight=8, b_wight=8, dread=8, lich=6 }

Personally, though, I wouldn't mind redoing Minion Mastery's table entirely. I've heard entirely too many complaints about how the skill still isn't high enough impact for most people's tastes.

Most people still only use it for Liches-which are really low odds-and I've heard tons of complaints that most of the minions aren't as good as Skeletons. I think that's probably unfair, but that it mostly stems from not getting any specific higher undead enough to really appreciate them, outside of the extremely strong Lich. That basic Vampires are essentially somewhat powered up Ghouls doesn't help.

Without changing anything about the creatures, though, this would be my thought, looking at the list and comparing to standard minions...

Code: Select all

	local cl = math.floor(self:getTalentLevel(self.T_MINION_MASTERY))
	if cl <= 1 then
		return { vampire=20, m_vampire=5, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	elseif cl == 2 then
		return { vampire=20, m_vampire=10, g_wight=5, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	elseif cl == 3 then
		return { vampire=10, m_vampire=15, g_wight=5, b_wight=5, dread=5, lich=0 }
	elseif cl == 4 then
		return { vampire=5, m_vampire=15, g_wight=8, b_wight=8, dread=8, lich=2 }
	elseif cl == 5 then
		return { vampire=0, m_vampire=18, g_wight=10, b_wight=10, dread=8, lich=4 }
	elseif cl >= 6 then
		return { vampire=0, m_vampire=20, g_wight=10, b_wight=15, dread=10, lich=6 }
	elseif cl >= 7 then
		return { vampire=0, m_vampire=20, g_wight=8, b_wight=18, dread=12, lich=8 }
	elseif cl >= 8 then
		return { vampire=0, m_vampire=20, g_wight=5, b_wight=20, dread=15, lich=10 }
	end

This produces a 25% chance to get one of the advanced at L1, a 61% chance total or so at L6, and 70% chance(With heavier weighting towards the highest end undead) with L8.

The Vampire chances mimic the Degenerated Skeleton Warrior chances, which fits-Vampires are a strict downgrade from Master Vampires. Master Vampires slack off later in the table because Dreads are generally better. And Barrow Wights are generally superior to Grave, but not massively enough to notice, so they only drop off very late in the scale, to make the L7/8 table more interesting.

And your base undead never cease to be relevant-Minion Mastery only counts for 61% at L6. It's a lot higher impact than before, admittedly, but I think the fact that you couldn't rely on any notable improvement or change with it before was part of the problem. (It's 70% at L8, but it probably ought to be pretty high impact if you get that high.)

This wasn't much work, so I don't mind if it doesn't get used, but it's worth thinking about.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:31 am**

Could have one table, and add minion mastery levels to create minions's levels.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:41 am**

Given that it's a table system, that'd require an entry for every possible level combination of Minion Mastery and Create Minions.

Not worth creating an over 50 entry table for.

If there's a real worry about Minion Mastery somehow obsoleting Create Minions-which isn't fair on a lot of levels, not the least of which being that Minion Mastery isn't even level-able until L22-You could have the table entries grant bonuses to the odds based on your Minion Mastery.

Like, say, you'd get +1% chance to Master Vampires per Create Minions level, +.5% chance for the other higher end undead besides Liches, and +.3% for Liches.

It's probably not worth it though.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:33 am**

Eh? I wouldn't require an option for every combination. Many of the combinations are degenerate. I meant just add the two levels together to get the table index. So instead of there being two tables, have one table with say 20 levels in it.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:53 am**

Oh, have them combine their levels? An level of Create Minions is basically the same as a level of Minion Mastery, for purposes of one big table, and then you start unlocking the more advanced undead at higher levels on the table? That's an interesting idea.

It would effectively make them interchangeable skills(with Create Minions being technically a bit better), but in practice, wouldn't change the dynamic much. That would make it much more controllable and balanceable, yeah.

Code: Select all

	if cl <= 1 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=55, skel_warrior=10, a_skel_warrior=0, skel_archer=10, skel_m_archer=0, skel_mage=5, ghoul=20, ghast=0, ghoulking=0, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 2 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=31, skel_warrior=15, a_skel_warrior=2, skel_archer=15, skel_m_archer=2, skel_mage=10,  ghoul=20, ghast=5, ghoulking=0, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 3 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=24, skel_warrior=15, a_skel_warrior=5, skel_archer=20, skel_m_archer=4, skel_mage=10,  ghoul=15, ghast=5, ghoulking=2, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 4 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=9, skel_warrior=20, a_skel_warrior=10, skel_archer=15, skel_m_archer=6, skel_mage=10,  ghoul=15, ghast=10, ghoulking=5, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 5 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=9, skel_warrior=20, a_skel_warrior=10, skel_archer=10, skel_m_archer=8, skel_mage=15,  ghoul=10, ghast=10, ghoulking=8, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 6 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=25, a_skel_warrior=15, skel_archer=10, skel_m_archer=10, skel_mage=15, ghoul=5, ghast=10, ghoulking=10, vampire=0, m_vampire=0, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 7 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=15, a_skel_warrior=15, skel_archer=10, skel_m_archer=10, skel_mage=15, ghoul=0, ghast=5, ghoulking=10, vampire=15, m_vampire=5, g_wight=0, b_wight=0, dread=0, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 8 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=10, a_skel_warrior=15, skel_archer=10, skel_m_archer=10, skel_mage=10, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=10, vampire=10, m_vampire=10, g_wight=5, b_wight=5, dread=5, lich=0 }
	if cl <= 9 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=5, a_skel_warrior=15, skel_archer=7, skel_m_archer=10, skel_mage=10, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=10, vampire=5, m_vampire=15, g_wight=7, b_wight=7, dread=7, lich=2 }
	if cl <= 10 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=15, skel_archer=7, skel_m_archer=10, skel_mage=10, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=10, vampire=5, m_vampire=15, g_wight=8, b_wight=8, dread=8, lich=4 }
	if cl <= 11 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=16, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=16, skel_mage=5, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=12, vampire=0, m_vampire=15, g_wight=10, b_wight=10, dread=10, lich=6 }
	if cl <= 12 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=17, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=17, skel_mage=0, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=12, vampire=0, m_vampire=10, g_wight=12, b_wight=12, dread=12, lich=8 }
	if cl <= 13 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=19, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=19, skel_mage=0, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=8, vampire=0, m_vampire=8, g_wight=10, b_wight=15, dread=12, lich=9 }
	if cl <= 14 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=20, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=20, skel_mage=0, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=5, vampire=0, m_vampire=8, g_wight=10, b_wight=15, dread=12, lich=10 }
	if cl <= 15 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=20, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=20, skel_mage=0, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=5, vampire=0, m_vampire=5, g_wight=8, b_wight=18, dread=14, lich=10 }
	if cl <= 16 then
		return { d_skel_warrior=0, skel_warrior=0, a_skel_warrior=20, skel_archer=0, skel_m_archer=20, skel_mage=0, ghoul=0, ghast=0, ghoulking=4, vampire=0, m_vampire=4, g_wight=5, b_wight=20, dread=16, lich=11 }

The first six levels are Summon Minions, the latter ten are whipped up from what sounds like it would be optimal leanings for your Minion table, based on the minions I've heard people like/dislike and the relative skillsets each has. 12 would be the normal ending place for Necromancers that capped both Necrotic Minions and Minion Mastery, while 10 would be the spot for Adventurers. It would require more coding than just slapping this table in, but not much, I think.

It also means that people could get higher minions from just heavily leveling Necrotic Minions...but not Liches, and not very far into the higher stuff, so I don't think that's a major problem?

Hopefully those all total 100, I did doublecheck. Anyways, thoughts?

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:37 am**

I'd like a higher tier ghoul. The other creatures don't use Retch or diseases.

But that looks like what I was suggesting.

Maybe add a small passive hp bonus to minion life, to Minion Mastery. Would make the talent slightly more different from Create Minions and they could do with a touch more life.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:24 pm**

You can also get it up to 8 with just a random mastery amulet, of course. Hell, you might get it to 9.

Random chance of elemental undead, random chance of elemental undead! Muhuhahahah

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:11 pm**

Rescaling this talent has been on the back burner for I500 for a while. Doesn't look too hard to eliminate the table and make it scale better - to at least talent level 100 eventually. So I'll take a crack at this today.

Posted: **Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:33 pm**

OK. I've worked out the formulas to compute minion probabilities for open-ended talent levels that match (pretty closely) the current chances. Without going into the details of all the parameters, here are the preliminary results (designed to match the current results at talent level 6):

For the Create Minions talent alone:

Code: Select all

TL	DSk War	 Sk War	ASk Wr	Sk Arc	Sk mArc	 Sk Mag	 Ghoul	 Ghast	GhoulK
1	  55.0%	  10.0%	  0.0%	  10.0%	  0.0%	  5.0%	  20.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%
2	  39.0%	  12.9%	  3.0%	  16.5%	  2.0%	  7.4%	  16.9%	  2.4%	  0.0%
3	  26.2%	  15.4%	  5.8%	  19.2%	  3.8%	  9.1%	  13.5%	  4.3%	  2.7%
4	  16.2%	  18.0%	  8.5%	  19.0%	  5.7%	  10.9%	  10.4%	  6.1%	  5.1%
5	  7.8%	  21.1%	  11.5%	  16.0%	  7.7%	  12.8%	  7.7%	  8.0%	  7.4%
6	  0.0%	  25.0%	  15.0%	  10.0%	  10.0%	  15.0%	  5.0%	  10.0%	  10.0%
10	  0.0%	  26.8%	  19.6%	  0.0%	  13.0%	  15.5%	  0.0%	  11.8%	  13.3%
25	  0.0%	  25.4%	  22.3%	  0.0%	  14.9%	  12.7%	  0.0%	  11.1%	  13.7%
50	  0.0%	  25.6%	  24.0%	  0.0%	  16.0%	  11.1%	  0.0%	  10.3%	  13.0%
100	  0.0%	  26.4%	  25.6%	  0.0%	  17.0%	  9.7%	  0.0%	  9.3%	  12.0%

For the Create Minions and Minion Mastery Talents (assumed equal talent levels):

Code: Select all

TL	DSk War	 Sk War	ASk Wr	Sk Arc	Sk mArc	 Sk Mag	 Ghoul	 Ghast	GhoulK
1	  52.2%	  9.5%	  0.0%	  9.5%	  0.0%	  4.7%	  19.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%
2	  35.5%	  11.8%	  2.7%	  15.1%	  1.8%	  6.7%	  15.4%	  2.2%	  0.0%
3	  22.9%	  13.5%	  5.0%	  16.8%	  3.4%	  8.0%	  11.8%	  3.8%	  2.3%
4	  13.4%	  14.9%	  7.0%	  15.7%	  4.7%	  9.0%	  8.6%	  5.1%	  4.2%
5	  6.1%	  16.5%	  9.0%	  12.5%	  6.0%	  10.0%	  6.0%	  6.2%	  5.8%
6	  0.0%	  18.5%	  11.1%	  7.4%	  7.4%	  11.1%	  3.7%	  7.4%	  7.4%
10	  0.0%	  18.7%	  13.6%	  0.0%	  9.1%	  10.8%	  0.0%	  8.2%	  9.2%
25	  0.0%	  16.5%	  14.5%	  0.0%	  9.6%	  8.2%	  0.0%	  7.2%	  8.9%
50	  0.0%	  16.1%	  15.0%	  0.0%	  10.0%	  6.9%	  0.0%	  6.4%	  8.1%
100	  0.0%	  16.1%	  15.6%	  0.0%	  10.4%	  5.9%	  0.0%	  5.7%	  7.3%

and

Code: Select all

TL	 Vamp	M Vamp	G Wight	B Wight	 Dread	  Lich
1	  5.1%	  0.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%
2	  6.5%	  1.0%	  0.0%	  0.0%	  1.5%	  0.0%
3	  6.8%	  1.8%	  1.1%	  0.0%	  2.7%	  0.0%
4	  6.3%	  2.5%	  2.1%	  1.4%	  3.8%	  1.4%
5	  5.4%	  3.2%	  3.0%	  2.7%	  4.8%	  2.7%
6	  4.0%	  4.0%	  4.0%	  4.0%	  6.0%	  4.0%
10	  0.0%	  4.9%	  5.4%	  6.3%	  7.3%	  6.3%
25	  0.0%	  5.2%	  6.2%	  7.9%	  7.8%	  7.9%
50	  0.0%	  5.4%	  6.6%	  8.6%	  8.1%	  8.6%
100	  0.0%	  5.6%	  6.9%	  9.1%	  8.4%	  9.1%

How does this look? Tweaking the numbers is of course little trouble, but this data illustrates what happens going forward. I plan on coding this up for the I500 addon.

Posted: **Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:31 am**

Looks like a pretty good approximation of current figures and looks like reasonable scaling past 6 to me.

Doesn't really alter it from its current functioning before 6, but I assume that wasn't a design goal.

Posted: **Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:04 pm**

I was trying to match the existing effects, but, once recoded, tweaking the effects is easy. It's just a question of what tweaks to put in, which, given the nature of the I500 addon, depends on what DG wants to go with.

Posted: **Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:43 pm**

Got this all coded up. As expected, transforming the tables into functions wasn't too difficult. Getting the tooltips and displays to play nicely were a little more involved. I did run into one issue, however.

What if a player trains up Minion Mastery to a much higher level than the base Create Minions talent? Following the trends, this would result in a very high proportion of dreads and liches. To get around this, I forced the chance calculations to use a minimum talent level of Create Minions equal to Minion Mastery. The result, in this case, is that the chances to get better ordinary minions improves with talent levels in Minion Mastery, but that the Create Minions talent still controls the number of minions you get and their levels (which can go higher than +8 levels). I think this is enough incentive to continue training up the Create Minions talent.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:51 pm**

Makes sense to me.

ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Assemble/Minion Mastery

Assemble/Minion Mastery

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