ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Played 2 shalore beserkers the other day. Even with rush they still get creamed if they cop double or triple crystals. The 1st died when he started surrounded by 3 crystals + some melees. The 2nd died shortly in to double reds. Was going to list a whole heap of suggestions then figured the simplest would be just to reduce the damage output on reds & crimsons. Whites are easy to dodge, blues are short range, blacks seem rarer & maybe you want something nasty to remain. Reds hit quick, flame cools down quick & being hit twice unshielded = dead. Shalore rogues have an even rougher time. It takes too much luck to get 1 through.

Slowing the projectiles down would put things more in line with what was originally intended. Th'only reason the crystals don't have unique talents is because th'fellow that coded them didn't feel like bloating the talent list unnecessarily.

That said, as always with shalore, if you don't think you can take the caves as your first dungeon... don't. Leave, and go to trollmires or norgos lair. Haven't lost an elf to the scint. caves in a long, loooong time.

Frumple wrote: That said, as always with shalore, if you don't think you can take the caves as your first dungeon... don't. Leave, and go to trollmires or norgos lair. Haven't lost an elf to the scint. caves in a long, loooong time.

While this does work, it does kind of just avoid the problem.

*scratches head* That it's dangerous for certain classes to start in? That problem? Getting caught out by three or so crystals can happen with skeleton magi (who have the same talent as reds), elven tempests (who have an even nastier beam attack), or sufficient number of agony/rebuke(? That short ranged doomed talent.)/whatever critters. The same problem's inherent in Kor'Pul, heart of the gloom, the rhaloren camp... blighted ruins, probably the deep bellow, as well. Some of the tier one zones are just a bit rougher on first level melee classes than others.

If you're up against 1v1, or 2v1, though... it's survivable, though I wouldn't recommend the latter. Regularly, and there's not much luck involved.

I wouldn't mind seeing the projectiles slowed down, though. As said, that's what was originally intended, and it'd be more interesting than just flat nerfing the damage. Dodge elfmonkey, dodge

None of the above list are starter dungeons & if you wander in at level 1 your probably getting what you deserve. That said I'd be happy with slower projectiles. Combined with phase door or grace of the eternals you'd be able to avoid or run a lot better. Would be amusing with escorts too. You'd sometime be able to jump in the way of the projectile if you felt heroic or stupid.

You can't get caught out by three skeleton magi in a level 1 dungeon short of a vault because of hallways. Scintillating Cavern does not have those. Skeleton magi also don't phase door out of melee range, nor are they as common as crystals. Agony cannot stack and the damage is spread out over 5 turns. Rebuke does not deal as much damage, and Heart of the Gloom is not a starter dungeon anyway.

Scintillating Caverns is way out of line with every other starter dungeon except maybe the Yeek ones.

Frumple wrote: I wouldn't mind seeing the projectiles slowed down, though. As said, that's what was originally intended, and it'd be more interesting than just flat nerfing the damage. Dodge elfmonkey, dodge

You can slow down the flame attack if you want, but it's still complete nonsense in my opinion.

Dodging spells is mostly a useless skill in ToME. You can very rarely find instances where it applies. Dark Crypt? Too cramped, almost everything happens short range or in corridors. Spellblaze scar? You get dark portaled too much for it to be applicable. Very long range projectiles can be dodged, but that takes no skill. Rak'Shor? Yeah, right. The first three instances of serious casting power (Derth elementals, Daikara boss, Tempest Peak) do not work with dodging at all. Orcish pyromancers? Instant spells. Luminous Horrors? Try dodging that. Dragon breath? Nope. Necromancer spells? How about alchemist bombs? Or Doomed abilities? Or Solipsist abilities? A few corruptor spells can be dodged, but blood spray can't be. Nor can curses or hexes, which will kill you just as easy as soul rot.

Archers can be dodged here and there, but when facing armored skeleton archers the last thing you want to be doing is trying to dance around and end up getting turned into a pincushion. Now, if you have a class ability that slows down spells and projectiles, good for you, but you need to learn to use it at the level where you get it, which is not level 1.

If you are melee, you want to rush and crush the spellcasters (or sneak and backstab). If you are ranged, you want to either outblast them or get yourself in position where you can (ab)use line of sight. Mass crowd control/aura of silence/extremely high resistances also work. Best case scenario, you want to get yourself in a position where you are not fighting more than one, or possibly two at the same time. None of this applies in the caves, and dodging spells is simply not applicable in the rest of the game, because most of the spells are exactly like flame is: impossible to dodge. If you slow down flame, you're giving false expectations to the new players - that they will be able to dodge flame. Or anything else significant, for that matter.

So, give a damage penalty to the red crystals, since the area is probably not getting reworked.

So, general things: Kor'Pul was a starter dungeon for quite a long while, and got swapped with Trollmire because th'Shade kept eating people. Conceptually, all of the first tier dungeons are starter dungeons; they're all intended (and are, but some are rougher on some race/class combos than others) to be capable of being done straight through at level one. Things like starting the scint. caves surrounded by a potential first level one-turn-TKO scenario is one of the major reasons why there's six of them; so you've got other, safer, areas to go to.

The spells being dodge-able isn't particularly trying to teach you anything, it's just supposed to be a neat mechanic that makes the zone easier, akin to the abashed expanse. The crystals were originally designed for the arena module, where slower projectiles added something quite interesting to the mix. There's open areas in both Kor'Pul (and blighted ruins, and both the yeek zones, and maybe dwarf but archers are pretty rare) and the Rhaloren camp, and getting one-turn'd by a group of their particular ranged nasties is as much a possibility there as in the caverns. No, there's not corridors in the caves, but there's still walls you can duck behind for cover and wait for the crystals to teleport themselves into more fortuitous positioning; they phase door around when they're out of LoS. If you were trying to teach folks how to deal with later game open area ranged scenarios, you'd leave things as they are -- near instant is more forgiving than instant, and should be imparting the same lesson (get behind a wall and wait for them to come to you or end it quick, and don't have many of them in LoS at the same time).

I'd say the crystals need to keep some bite, and that a damage hit wouldn't be appropriate. You can already just walk through them around level four or five most of the time, and making that possible at level one is kinda'... unpleasant, really. They're already basically trivial outside of odd edge cases (starting surrounded), and making 'em moreso would just be kinda' sad Slowing down the projectiles would be doing that too (zig-zag walking is a thing, and already renders white crystals a moot issue), but at least it'd be doing it in a more interesting manner than just lowering the numbers, y'know?

A new player is not going to know that. They're going to roll a Shalore rogue, see a red crystal, walk towards it, get hit with Flame, pop a shield rune, then die a few turns later to a two Flames from two different red crystals that they can't run away from or kill. Then they're going to decide that ToME is stupidly imbalanced and quit without ever realizing what an amazing game it actually is. What they're not going to do is leave the dungeon on turn 1 and go do something else because they somehow know that the first dungeon the game starts you with is actually a death trap. Another thing they're not going to do is start as a Yeek, because Yeeks are locked. They're also not going to leave Trollmire on turn 1 and go get killed by the Shade instead. Those are not issues. Scintillating Caves is.

The fact that Scintillating Caves is where you spawn as a Shalore IS important and sets it apart from Rhaloren Camp, and no, it doesn't matter that vets know to evacuate immediately. You want a challenge? Then stick it in a dungeon that's not going to be the first dungeon that a new player ever plays.

Frumple wrote: No, there's not corridors in the caves, but there's still walls you can duck behind for cover and wait for the crystals to teleport themselves into more fortuitous positioning; they phase door around when they're out of LoS. If you were trying to teach folks how to deal with later game open area ranged scenarios, you'd leave things as they are -- near instant is more forgiving than instant, and should be imparting the same lesson (get behind a wall and wait for them to come to you or end it quick, and don't have many of them in LoS at the same time).

You can't duck behind cover when 2 phase door in around you which I've had happen a few times. You also need a pretty good idea of how Tome's LOS works to know whether your truly in cover. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it can't see you & if 1 has just phased you may have no idea where it is. Cover could be in 2 opposite directions depending where it lands.

I've never really had bad problems with dealing with the crystals as a starting char in the Scintillating Caves. Maybe I just haven't tried a particularly tough starting race/class combo for the Caves??

For melee classes, not just the shielding rune, but the Shaloren speed can help a bit, too, with the closing speed.

Shalore cursed is the hardest class to clear the caves without going anywhere else except the worldmap. And yet it can be done on roguelike most of the time.