ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Feel through the dimensions with your ego. Stretching yourself beyond the self, you get in touch with your past, future and paralel selves. At the cost of your current being, you become a mix of different lives.
This inherently unbalanced class will often force the player to make unusual builds, trying as hard as possible to match skill trees that don't always agree with each other.

Unlock: reach level 20 of the infinite dungeon.
Skill trees:
technique Combat training 1.2 - unlocked (general)
technique Dimensionology 1.3 - unlocked (class)

Starts with one class point in Dimensionology - Combined Self

Skill tree Dimensionology
Combined Self
Cannot be unlearned.
Passive
Allows access to skill trees of your other selves. Grants 4 random unlocked class skill trees, 3 random locked class skill trees, 3 random unlocked general skill trees and 1 random locked general skill tree, all at tree level 1.00 . Also grants 3 additional skill points.
The chaos that comes from having a thinly spread ego causes your positive health regeneration to be reduced by 80%/60%/40%/20%/0%/-20%. (negative reduction results in increased regeneration)
Health regeneration increases with willpower.
At talent level 5, a new random class skill tree will be added to the list. (you won't know which one until you spend that fifth class point in this skill)
Restrictions: the random skill trees should not lead to duplicate trees. The locked general skill tree should not be a racial tree or the cursed tree.

Borrowing perspective
You temporarly use the mind of another self to do the thinking for you.
Active, instant
Cooldown: 40/36/32/28/25 turns
Range: Self
Cost: none
Ignore the status effects stunned*/confused for 3/4/5/6/7/8 turns. Any new confused effects cannot be applied when Borrowing perspective is active. Duration scales with willpower. (note: does not prevent new stun effects, but keeps ignoring them until Borrowing perspective runs out)
*also includes flame shock and dazed.

Selftrade
Active, 1 turn
Cooldown: 15 turns
Range: self
Cost: 50 hit points
Gain resources. x mana, y stamina etc (use resource leach balance * talent level)

Forcing perspective
You ensnare an opponent in your ego, making it forget itself.
Active, 1 turn
Travelspeed: instantanious
Cooldown: 15 turns
Range: 4/5/6/7/7
Gain control of an opponent for 1 action (that includes a movement action). Chance increases with talent level and mindpower. (mindpower test with talent level bonus)

Alternative for Selftrade:
Borrowing Skill
You imitate the actions of another you.
Active, 1 turn
Gain 1 random active skill that disappears when used. Talent level of the borrowed skill is equal to that of Borrowing Skill(skill appears in place of Borrowing Skill until used)

Alternative for Forcing Perspective
Stealing Skill
You let your ego combine with that of another, letting it's mind guide your actions instead of it's own.
Active, 1 turn
Range: 4/5/6/7/7
Cooldown 15 turns
Take one of your target's skills and use it yourself. The skill is chosen random from the target's activatable/non-sustainable skills that are not on cooldown. The chosen skill is forced on cooldown.

note: I'm not going to try and create this class myself, sorry for that. So if anyone feels interested in acting on this idea: please go ahead.

I like the concept, but there's way too much randomness here. For example, no one would use a skill that takes a turn and gives you a completely random result. It could turn out to be something completely useless for the situation. More importantly, so much randomness in skill trees is an invitation to scumming, since some Dimensionalists would be infinitely more powerful than others.

Some ways of cutting down the randomness might include:

1. Some more fixed (Paradox-based?) skill trees (e.g. ways of summoning/scouting with parallel selves?)
2. The "random" trees are taken from a restricted selection of trees rather than all trees, e.g. only ones that use a specific resource.
3. A number of "normal" classes (the parallel selves) are generated at birth (or perhaps you get additional ones by investing in Divided Self?); the player has some way of swapping between them, but obviously with restrictions to prevent this from being imbalanced.

What I wanted to achieve with this idea is the same principle you get when you press Random during character selection with other roguelikes. ie, you make it hard on yourself not by increasing the power of the monsters etc, but by giving yourself a random character build.

For example, no one would use a skill that takes a turn and gives you a completely random result.

Note that with Borrowing Skill, you can use it at a safe zone and keep from using the resulting skill until you need it. Though that would probably result in constant using of the skill until you get a good one, which results in cumbersome gameplay. So that's probably not such a good idea.
The Stealing Skill can be worth using in combat because you prevent your opponent from using a skill (by placing it on cooldown). Still, I can understand that people wouldn't want to use it.
So it's probably better to keep those alternatives out of it and keep with the Selftrade(this one really needs a better name) and Forcing Perspective. Those two together with Borrowing Perspective feel stable to me. I believe they will stay usefull in most skill tree combinations.

1. Some more fixed (Paradox-based?) skill trees (e.g. ways of summoning/scouting with parallel selves?)

I don't want to make the character too similair to the paradox classes. (unless by random skill tree chance) I really want people to feel like they've got an entirely different character each time they pick this class. (which is why I only added 1 class tree)

2. The "random" trees are taken from a restricted selection of trees rather than all trees, e.g. only ones that use a specific resource.

Not a bad idea. Selftrade can get you resources, so there isn't much chance of getting a completely useless tree. But I can see you getting a skilltree that for example requires you to have summoned minions, without having a skill tree that summons those minions. At the very least, you shouldn't get a skilltree that depends on having a necrotic aura if you don't also get the tree with necrotic aura. One way to solve this would be to check for each selected tree that depends on another tree, to see if that other tree is selected and if not, select another random tree. Another way would be as you suggested, to make it impossible to get some trees.

3. A number of "normal" classes (the parallel selves) are generated at birth (or perhaps you get additional ones by investing in Divided Self?); the player has some way of swapping between them, but obviously with restrictions to prevent this from being imbalanced.

This sounds like a concept that completely changes the gameplay
Sounds fun, but probably very cumbersome to play. (I remember that as a Necromancer, a big chunk of all my damage recieved was from my own skeleton mages) Balance could be achieved by reducing skillpoints per level per character.

Keeping it closer to the original concept, perhaps it can be so that you get to choose skilltrees from randomly selected classes. ie, at character birth there are 4 randomly race/class builds and you get to pick from their trees, with a maximum of trees that you can choose from a single character. After you've chosen 11 trees, the characters disappear. (so you get a dwarf/mage, a halfling/mage, a higher/temporal warden and a dwarf/rogue. You pick some mage and temporal warden skills and the dwarf tree too)
We can then have the stat bonus that you normally get from picking a class be an avarage of the classes from which you picked your skill trees.

Apun re-reading your suggestion, I get the feeling that perhaps you didn't mean that they where all 'on the field' at the same time as a party, but that if you've activated one of your selves, the other selves linger in limbo(/the void). That's also an interesting idea, though that doesn't get you what I wanted to achieve when I suggested this class (an unique character build each time you select this class)

NEHZ wrote:Borrowing perspective
You temporarly use the mind of another self to do the thinking for you.
Active, instant
Cooldown: 40/36/32/28/25 turns
Range: Self
Cost: none
Ignore the status effects stunned*/confused for 3/4/5/6/7/8 turns. Any new confused effects cannot be applied when Borrowing perspective is active. Duration scales with willpower. (note: does not prevent new stun effects, but keeps ignoring them until Borrowing perspective runs out)
*also includes flame shock and dazed.

This is overpowered. Stunning and confusion are really detrimental to players, and this ability trivializes them with only a few points. I would make this take a turn. It would also be really annoying on a monster.

NEHZ wrote:Selftrade
Active, 1 turn
Cooldown: 15 turns
Range: self
Cost: 50 hit points
Gain resources. x mana, y stamina etc (use resource leach balance * talent level)

It could be interesting to sacrifice health for other resources, but this is too vague.

NEHZ wrote:Forcing perspective
You ensnare an opponent in your ego, making it forget itself.
Active, 1 turn
Travelspeed: instantanious
Cooldown: 15 turns
Range: 4/5/6/7/7
Gain control of an opponent for 1 action (that includes a movement action). Chance increases with talent level and mindpower. (mindpower test with talent level bonus)

Way too weak, and feels too similar to a yeek racial ability.

NEHZ wrote:Borrowing Skill
You imitate the actions of another you.
Active, 1 turn
Gain 1 random active skill that disappears when used. Talent level of the borrowed skill is equal to that of Borrowing Skill(skill appears in place of Borrowing Skill until used)

The problem with this skill is that it encourages scumming (to try to get the best skill). Maybe makes this a sustain that allows you to copy skills by observation, but you only get one skill, and it costs some other resource instead of the usual (but you would have to balance resource costs for monster only skills).

NEHZ wrote:Alternative for Forcing Perspective
Stealing Skill
You let your ego combine with that of another, letting it's mind guide your actions instead of it's own.
Active, 1 turn
Range: 4/5/6/7/7
Cooldown 15 turns
Take one of your target's skills and use it yourself. The skill is chosen random from the target's activatable/non-sustainable skills that are not on cooldown. The chosen skill is forced on cooldown.

Sounds cool, but doing a successful steal skill ability can be tricky.

eliotn wrote:

NEHZ wrote:Forcing perspective
You ensnare an opponent in your ego, making it forget itself.
Active, 1 turn
Travelspeed: instantanious
Cooldown: 15 turns
Range: 4/5/6/7/7
Gain control of an opponent for 1 action (that includes a movement action). Chance increases with talent level and mindpower. (mindpower test with talent level bonus)

Way too weak, and feels too similar to a yeek racial ability.

I think that this may actually be too powerful unless some restrictions are placed on it. Some possibilities I see it being used for:
Deactivate a sustain (Necrotic Aura, Disruption Shield, Call Shadows, Shield Wall, Aura spikes, etc...)
Simultaneously drain resources, place a talent on cooldown, and damage itself/an enemy.
Teleport away.
Drop a piece of equipment (though this probably wouldn't be allowed)

One problem with this class idea, as I mentioned before, is too many resources. That gave me an idea: what if all the resources were translated into one resource, such as Paradox, which seems thematically appropriate? And that gave me another idea: what if you had a character that was somewhat more powerful than most characters, but had no way of reducing its Paradox except by triggering anomalies? You'd need to get rid of backfires and spell failures, of course, or all Dimensionalists would die in short order, but sufficiently frequent and nasty anomalies would balance that problem.

Basically I'm looking for a magic class that works like the wizards from Terry Pratchett's books, where magic is both incredibly powerful and subject to massive and unforeseen consequences that can easily destroy rash users. The "incredibly powerful" part is easy to handle (just give Dimensionalists a ton of random skill trees to choose from so as to ensure that they wind up with at least one overpowered combination) and anomalies would take care of the "massive and unforeseen consequences" part.

eliotn wrote:

NEHZ wrote:Borrowing perspective
You temporarly use the mind of another self to do the thinking for you.
Active, instant
Cooldown: 40/36/32/28/25 turns
Range: Self
Cost: none
Ignore the status effects stunned*/confused for 3/4/5/6/7/8 turns. Any new confused effects cannot be applied when Borrowing perspective is active. Duration scales with willpower. (note: does not prevent new stun effects, but keeps ignoring them until Borrowing perspective runs out)
*also includes flame shock and dazed.

This is overpowered. Stunning and confusion are really detrimental to players, and this ability trivializes them with only a few points. I would make this take a turn. It would also be really annoying on a monster.

Would it still be overpowered if the turns where limited to 1/1/2/2/3? If you get a 5 turn stun, ignoring it for 3 turns would still make you suffer for 2 turns of it, at a 5 point investment. I'd also like to note that this abillity won't work against freezed.

Parcae2 wrote:One problem with this class idea, as I mentioned before, is too many resources. That gave me an idea: what if all the resources were translated into one resource, such as Paradox, which seems thematically appropriate? And that gave me another idea: what if you had a character that was somewhat more powerful than most characters, but had no way of reducing its Paradox except by triggering anomalies? You'd need to get rid of backfires and spell failures, of course, or all Dimensionalists would die in short order, but sufficiently frequent and nasty anomalies would balance that problem.

Basically I'm looking for a magic class that works like the wizards from Terry Pratchett's books, where magic is both incredibly powerful and subject to massive and unforeseen consequences that can easily destroy rash users. The "incredibly powerful" part is easy to handle (just give Dimensionalists a ton of random skill trees to choose from so as to ensure that they wind up with at least one overpowered combination) and anomalies would take care of the "massive and unforeseen consequences" part.

If we don't have any normal way of removing the paradox, such as Rest, it will encourage the player to hide in a corner using random skills untill it decreases.

Resource: Extension
To use skills, you need to manifest your ego in other dimensions. Doing this often will spread you thinly, influencing your concentration. At high levels, it will become possible for part of your ego to snap back, retrieving something you didn't ask for, distabilizing the dimensional barrier or being followed by other dimensional beings.
Extension decreases to 0 over time (-0.2). Apart from the snap effect, there is no way to decrease Extension other then waiting (resource leech doesn't work). Whenever you use a Dimensionology ability or an ability from a tree gained through Combined Self, your Extension increases. The higher your Extension, the greater chance of a snap. A snap will cause your Extension to decrease, in addition to one of the following effects:
-failure of the skill
-summoning of a wild unit, enemy to everyone
-confusion effect for one turn (ignores confusion immunity)
-a random area debuf centered on (and effecting) you
-a random area buff centered on, but only sometimes effecting you (omg, everyone just turned invisible!)
-if the skill can target, target area of the skill randomly changed
-resistance to mind damage lowered by 10% for 4 turns
-...more?

Is it difficult possible to take a random tree and replacing it's resource use and adding an effect chance on activation, without completely copying and editing that tree?
Sustains add minimum Extension, Willpower slightly decreases the chance of a snap.