ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Inspecting monsters is a very valuable and useful tactical tool.

Which is why I think it should cost a turn

I somewhat agree, but there are so many cases where I would be annoyed - do I use another action if I accidentally close the window? Do I use an action if it's a creature I've inspected before? Not to mention that it rewards the player for just popping open the files. I know some can resist spoiling themselves, but ToME can be awfully cruel when it comes to crazy boss talents. If they game was built around ID'ing and gathering information, I'd be more agreeable. I just don't think it can be introduced at this point.

The annoying instances can be accounted for. Just have it only cost an action the first time you inspect them. The tactical advantage you gain by taking the time to inspect a creature is huge... I think it should cost time in game to gain that kind of advantage.

I dislike this suggestion because it feels like it would generally reward experienced players more. While, yeah, experience in the sense of getting better at the game should be rewarded, I don't think that "experience" in terms of memorizing monster stats should be rewarded at all -- basically, I think that ToME is meant to be a game that you can reasonably beat by playing through from beginning to end on your first try (or close to your first try, once you've learned the basic controls and such), just by doing what seems logical and thinking carefully as you plan your character, moves, etc.

In fact, I think part of the reason the game has the ability to inspect monsters (when most games don't) is to avoid rewarding players just for knowing all the monsters, and to even things out for newer players who don't know what everything is resistant or weak to.

The advantage gained by inspecting mostly applies to newer/unspoiled players, except somewhat against farportal bosses/stair bosses/adventurers. I know what the majority of any enemy's talents are, as well as what nearly all of the sustains and timed effects do (and which classes they are associated with), and would not lose very much utility from this change; a player meeting new enemies for the first time would be at a huge disadvantage under this proposal.

In short, I agree with Aquillion (posted after I started writing).

This goes against the philosophy of the game. Keep information free!

lemme put it this way. if there was an addon which made inspect cost a turn, i wouldn't install it, cause it doesn't add to the fun of the game.

Conversely if it cost a turn in the game and there was an addon that made it free, i'd probably install it.

Grey wrote:This goes against the philosophy of the game. Keep information free!

My thoughts exactly. I really like that in tome I don't have to jump through all kinds of hoops to access information, and I can just focus on decision making.
I don't think that things should have a cost just because they're valuable and useful. Identifying items is extremely useful, and tome does that for free.

haha.. alright, I guess I'm alone in this. For the record, I disagree with all of you and frankly was sad to see this feature go in to begin with

My thought on the suggestion was in a tactical game, when knowledge is power, having to spend an action to inspect a creature would add more depth. Right now it's just a gimme, which is fine. But it is a gimme and gimme's don't add to the decision making tree

It costing a turn would make recon spells and abilities more valuable (stealth, preternatural senses, the higher racial, ambushcade, precognition, etc. etc) and generally could be done before you even engage. It would also allow us to create spells or items that gave instant inspection back.

To me it just feels like a lot of information for free. Don't most roguelike look commands cost a turn? We're already getting a ton of monster information on the tooltip.

But I'll drop it after I point out that my simple suggestion doesn't have to be the end and the beginning of how it could be implemented...

Something like this could be included with a simple monster memory flag. If your character has never encountered the creature before (or creature type for non-uniques), the first 'inspect' costs a turn. After that you get 'recall' instead which does not cost a turn.

As to me personally not being a fan of the feature, I like surprises. I like making cool new monsters and new talents and thinking to myself man it's going to be cool when someone first encounters Devourers and they go into a frenzy! Or the dread the first time Epoch multiplies on you.

I think it's been a great debugging and balancing tool, that players can look and see exactly what talents are causing unfair deaths, especially on random uniques. But beyond that I'm really not a fan.

Anyway, I'll drop it and instead go about making clever shapechanging monsters who's stats change every time you close the inspect window

edge2054 wrote:Don't most roguelike look commands cost a turn?

Um.. no. Not in any I've played anyway. It's generally taken as a given that looking is free.

edge2054 wrote:Anyway, I'll drop it and instead go about making clever shapechanging monsters who's stats change every time you close the inspect window

lol!

I think your argument is well thought out, and i can almost see it having a fun element.

But for the fun element one could have the staggered learning as per angband but still make inspect free. And make it optional.

I might be alone in thinking this, but I think that the community module should have talents based entirely around target inspection. It really is powerful.

If it's not going to cost any time I think there needs to be an in game explanation for it being so powerful.

A game log message saying "Images from the Orb of Knowledge flood your mind" would be fine. I don't like that every character in the game is effectively omnipotent when it comes to monster abilities without any way of explaining it.

Which umm... makes me consider Non-Detection abilities that shut down portions of 'inspect' (so you can only see the general sheet and maybe equipment when that goes on) as well as talents and abilities that cause backlash when the target is inspected or maybe even flags that trigger quests through the Orb of Knowledge (what if some monster's psychic backlash managed to shut down the Orb of Knowledge? Or push halfling chick into a coma through the backlash and you had to track her down and save her?)

I'll of course talk to Darkgod first, see if his intention that it is a gimme, i.e. an out of game mechanic or if it should or could be incorporated into the game world's lore some how.

Point being, I think 'inspect' can be more then just another key you press and that there's a lot of wasted potential if it's just 'part of the UI'. If the player base is really opposed to it taking time I understand but I still think it can be a lot more then it is now.

Don't some NPCs with tactical AI also know the player resistances and so on?
Perhaps it would be fairer for foes to be able to 'inspect' the player in a way, based on their AI level.
It would be quite...interesting(and painful)for some bosses to actually KNOW what talents the player has and behave accordingly similarly to how the player can do with them.
Likely time consuming to code and have to ensure you can't trick them with respec tough.

I actually do like the idea. Or make inspect only show abilities that have been used, and any active sustains. Some kind of in-game knowledge base that displays some information about monsters and abilities already encountered would also be nice.