ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

As it stands, I think that necros have two basic problems:

1. Summoner necros are simultaneously too strong and too boring.
2. Lichform is not good enough to explain why all necromancers are obsessed with getting it. It also doesn't offer any in-game version of the ETERNAL LIFE it claims to offer.

I think that this dilemma can be solved by nerfing summons so that necros have to do their own damage, while simultaneously buffing Lichform so that it really does appear as the crown of a Necromancer's achievements.

Firstly, the minions. Minions are enslaved souls constantly fighting for their freedom from their captor. In-game, this could be represented by all minions having a chance to break free and attack their master when they are damaged, this chance depending on the necro's mindpower and on the strength of the summons he's currently trying to control. Even high-level necros should struggle to control more than, say, one lich and one eternal bone giant with no other summons. Also, the low-level summons should have their damage reduced by a considerable margin. Ideally, souls should also be tiered, with the soul of a boss monster being needed to create an advanced summon. Finally, it should be impossible to gain souls from your own bunnies.

All of this would, of course, result in a considerable nerf for summoner necros, but it should also spice them up a bit. This nerf would be compensated by the strengthening of Lichform.

Firstly, the existing benefits should be nerfed; in particular, the life rating boost should be done away with. Also, the prospective lich must be killed by self-targeting in a specific area with a consecrated blade: Lichform is not a mere extra life for emergencies. In exchange, necros acquire a phylactery with 20/40/60/100 life (might need adjustment) when they assume their new form. As long as this phylactery survives, the necro is completely unkillable - but he dies instantly when the phylactery is destroyed. When the lich's hitpoints drop below a certain level (30%, say), hits for more than 10% of his maximum life have a chance to stagger him into dropping the phylactery, which then goes flying into a random location 5 to 10 squares away. The phylactery behaves as a party member with no attack or movement abilities, with the above-mentioned hit points and with very high resistances; trash enemies will still prioritize the (invulnerable) lich and his other party members the majority of the time, but elites and bosses will head right for the phylactery and try to destroy it. Also, it can be destroyed by AoE, including friendly fire. Walking over the phylactery will pick it up. Your phylactery does not regain hitpoints naturally, but can be recharged for a small amount by using boss souls.

(Another way to model the phylactery's strength is to say that it can absorb 1-5 blows of any kind depending on Lichform point investment).

The phylactery can be given to other party members (such as a friendly lich), which will prevent them from turning on you under any circumstances. They will also get a boost to resistances and damage, but they are even more prone to dropping the phylactery than you are, and they are also guaranteed to drop it if they die. These factors should be adjusted so that giving the phylactery to a minion is a bit risky but still useful for necros who have decided to invest very heavily in the Advanced Minions tree (essentially, choosing quality over quantity in terms of summons).

As much as I appreciate the effort, this sounds way too complicated.

OK, fair enough. Which part is too complicated? The phylactery?

Perhaps this could be a simpler way to implement it:

1. The phylactery is a ring, staff or amulet you enchant
2. While it's equipped, you're invulnerable
3. While it's unequipped, you can die and lose mana per turn
4. Blows for more than x% of max health (varies with talent level) send it flying away to a random nearby unoccupied square, and you have to go pick it up and equip it again

I don't think that that's too complex. Imagine how much fun it would be to try frantically to Phase Door past a corridor of opponents in search of your ticket to eternal life! Also, the need to waste a item slot would be an additional factor preventing it from being too overpowered.

1. Yes, they're overpowered. They're not as overpowered as some other classes though. Plenty of people seem to enjoy summoner necros. The main complaint seems to be minion management/friendly-fire.
2. Eternal life (immortality/undying) doesn't mean invincibility (not-killable). Frankly, nigh-invulnerability is boring.

I disagree with most of your ideas. The phylactery sounds overly complicated and annoying. And Curse of the Meek was already fixed. Lichform is already an unique and flavorful talent. Lichform doesn't mean much to Adventurer mode players, but it doesn't change the fact it's basically an extra life.

I suggest replacing the Conveyance tree with the Phantasm tree. That would remove one of the cheesiest tactics that summoner necros have.

I'd say that Lichform is very, very good. As far as immortality goes - it *is* an extra life. The phylactery is an interesting concept, but I have no doubt it would just lead to annoying gameplay. It would be a hilarious artifact, though, especially if NPCs could pick it up.

I think the real issue with minions is that they are just copy-and-paste versions of NPCs. They weren't really designed to be part of a class.

Parcae2 wrote:Firstly, the minions. Minions are enslaved souls constantly fighting for their freedom from their captor. In-game, this could be represented by all minions having a chance to break free and attack their master when they are damaged, this chance depending on the necro's mindpower and on the strength of the summons he's currently trying to control. Even high-level necros should struggle to control more than, say, one lich and one eternal bone giant with no other summons.

This just sounds annoying. It would make even fights that are supposed to be relatively easy into a huge pain, and would feel heavily random, with potentially catastrophic consequences.

Necromancers aren't really overpowered overall. They're more powerful than some classes, but they're weaker than others. And not every class needs to be equally powerful -- this is not an MMoRPG. Each class should offer a unique style of gameplay, but it's perfectly fine for them to vary significantly in difficulty as long as they're all fun.

Toxic_Chicken wrote:I suggest replacing the Conveyance tree with the Phantasm tree. That would remove one of the cheesiest tactics that summoner necros have.

This would synergize well with undead, since they'd be immune to blinding by illuminate, and tricksy illusion stuff fits thematically too. In contrast Displacement, while more powerful, doesn't play nice with minions: Teleporting away will leave your minions outside of your necrotic aura, and they block your targeting for displacement shield. And pro travel of course plays a little too nicely.

That's a nerf I'd like.

Parcae2 wrote:I think that this dilemma can be solved by nerfing summons so that necros have to do their own damage, while simultaneously buffing Lichform so that it really does appear as the crown of a Necromancer's achievements.

I kind of like that Lichform is nice but not the whole point of the class, Necro should be a good choice for your regular type of undead, too.

I say no to increasing minion struggles, they try to kill me enough as it is. It's already at the point that I try to kill of any mages before going to a level that might have an escort quest.
Really, mages' arcane damage plus armored skeletons' AoE runes hurt. More so when you get 2 or 3 of them on you in one turn.

I disagree mainly with the complication of souls, particularly "tiered" souls. This just adds more confusion to the resource, and more for the game to keep track of. There's already WAAAAAY more resources than most roguelikes, and the management of souls is already interesting enough at the moment.