ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I propose that ranged combat, and the class(es) that utilize it, should be re-done.

Archers were recently merged into the Warriors class category because the Slinger and the Archer were too similar. While I agree that this is probably a nice short-term solution, I feel the correct final solution is to diversify the Archery classes and make them more interesting. Furthermore, many existing abilities for Archers don't even make sense with one weapon or the other, so I came up with ideas for more weapon-specific abilities.


Ranged Weapons

To make the classes feel unique at lower levels, their basic weapons can have some differing properties.

Slings -- Ammunition: Shots
Dependent on Cunning. They have the shortest base range (4) and fastest speed (80%), but suffer from accuracy problems. Ricochet effects allow you to attack a wide range of opponents. Slings also have some melee use with the proper skills.

Bows -- Ammunition: Arrows
Dependent on Dexterity. They have the longest range (6), medium speed (100%) and moderate damage and accuracy. The standard of choice for ranged combat.

Crossbows -- Ammunition: Bolts
Dependent on Strength. They are slow (attack speed 150%) and medium range (5), but also have the highest damage, above-average armor piercing and the highest accuracy. They can also utilize their weapon effectively in melee combat as a makeshift bludgeoning tool and learn to reload their weapon faster as their mastery increases.

Bows are the only weapon viable for a non-archer, due to the slow speed of the untrained Crossbow and low damage of the Sling.


The Archery Skillset
All Archer sub-classes share a unique set of skill trees. New skill trees will have an underlined stat listed. This stat is what the tree is based off of, and skills in that tree may be modified by that stat.

Technique / Ranged combat Dexterity
The basics of ranged warfare

Target Leading
Increases Accuracy, also increases effective range by +1 at ranks 2 and 4. May need a projectile speed increase for sanity reasons at rank 4+.

"You have practiced leading moving targets, allowing you to hit targets at longer distances and with improved accuracy."


Retreating Shot
Step away from a foe 1 tile while simultaneously firing a ranged attack. Higher ranks decrease cooldown.

"You step away from your target while you make your attack, keeping your distance and leveraging your weapon's properties to your own advantage."


Crippling Shot
Moving from tier 2 to tier 3. To compensate, increase speed penalty with each rank. Otherwise, as-is.

Aim
Moving from tier 2 to tier 4, to compensate, eliminate the firing speed penalty. Otherwise, as-is.


Technique / Field control
As expected. No change.

Technique / Combat veteran (locked)
While these skills are expected to be intensely useful, they are not skills that fit the rather marked style of a ranged combatant.


The Classes

Archer
The most traditional of the classes. The archer is a master of the bow. An archer's skills try to make as much use of their range as possible.

Technique / Archery Dexterity
The art of the bow.

Bow Mastery
As-is

Piercing Arrow
As-is

Penetration
Passive. [Skill level x 10]% chance that any regular attack will pierce through the target and strike a foe behind. This can happen multiple times in a single shot.

"Your skill with the arrow has enabled your attacks to frequently pierce completely through an enemy, effortlessly."

Volley of Arrows
As-is


Technique / Technique - bows Dexterity
Skills for an aspiring bow master.

Flare
As-is

Pinning Shot
Moving from tier 3 to tier 2. The duration of pin is reduced by 1 to compensate.

Artillery Stance
Sustained. Range is increased by 2. Accuracy is reduced by 10. Defense is reduced 100%. Defense penalty is reduced 15% with each added skill level. (With all ranks in target leading, this gives an effective range of 10.)

"Your familiarity with your weapon allows you to fire shots with excessive loft and still hit your target. Unfortunately, the stance required to do this makes avoiding attacks difficult."

Fist Full of Arrows
A conal attack that strikes all foes up to range 6. Deals 60 + [skill level x 20]% damage. All affected foes are dazed for 3 turns.

"By nocking an entire fist full of arrows on your bow and firing it sideways, you coat an entire field in a hail of pain. What lacks in accuracy is made up for with volume. The sheer mass of the assault can disorient your foes."


Technique / Finesse Dexterity
How to make Archery look good and maim foes at the same time.

Steady Shot
As-is

Dual Arrows
As-is

Rapid Shot
As-is

True Shot
The next ranged attack WILL hit and has a [skill level x 20]% chance of a guaranteed crit. The effect works with other skills. Cooldown begins at skill activation, so using it well in advance of an encounter is recommended. Cooldown is very long.

"Your unwavering faith in your weapon brings out the full potential in your next attack."


Technique / Combat training (locked)
As-is


Slinger
Slingers are the tank-class equivalent in the ranged combat styles. Unhindered by heavy armor, and wielding a one-handed weapon, Slingers can make due with a shield, or with an additional off-hand sling that has techniques all of it's own. Do note that an off-hand sling cannot fire shots on it's own and is utilized more like a whip.

Technique / Slinging Dexterity
The basics of slinging.

Sling Mastery
As-is

Eye Shot
As-is

Inertial Shot
As-is

Disorienting Shots
Passive. Critical hits on regular attacks confuse the target for [skill level + 2] turns. Only affects the primary target in the case of a ricochet.

"Your shots strike with such concussive force that a target is often disoriented by the assault."


Technique / Technique - slings Cunning
Whip it good!

Flail
Deals damage to a target in melee range, stunning the target for 3 turns.

"Bash your target with your sling without releasing your shot."


Blast Shot
Targetable radius 2 AoE. Deals 20 + [skill level x 10%] damage. All affected targets have movement speed reduced by 10% for 5 turns.

"Shatter your ammunition against the ground, sending fragments flying in all directions, embedding the shards into the legs of your foes.


Ricochet
Sustained. All ranged attacks from the sling, including skills and subsequent ricocheted attacks, have a 20% chance to ricochet off to another target at 75 + [skill level x 5]% of the previous damage. Costs no stamina.

"You have mastered the art of banking your shots off of one target and into another."


Multishot
As-is. This ability is augmented significantly by ricochet.


Technique / Dual-slings (locked) Cunning
A sling with a shot in it is basically a rope with a weight on it. This is the art of leveraging that weight to maximum effect.

Double Flail
Passive. Flail attacks now make an additional attack with the off-hand sling at full damage. If both attacks connect, the stun duration is increased by [skill level] turns.

"You have a second face-smasher and you've practiced using it."


Disarm
Attempts to strip a foe of its weapon. Enemies without weapons become entangled and lose [skill level x 5] accuracy for 5 turns.

"You have learned how to utilize the weighted end of your sling to wrap around small objects and rip them away from people."


Trip
Sets a target's global speed to 50% for two turns. Deals damage equal to the target's constitution. Success chance increases with skill level and cunning.

A foe that cannot stand is therefore unable to stand and fight. Bring your opponent down."


Sling Dance
Attacks all foes in melee range with a standard Flail attack using your offhand sling, and finish with a ranged attack using your primary sling against a targetted opponent for [skill level x 50] + 50% damage.

Round and round we go, and when we stop, someone will know.


Technique / Combat training
This skill tree is unlocked for Slingers, but still remains locked for other Archery classes.


Technique / Sling technique - block (locked) Strength
You have a hand free. Use it! NOTE: Equipping a shield gives a 20% attack speed penalty.

Shield Press
Knock a target in melee range back by 1 and step into the vacated space. If the knockback is successful, there is a [skill level x20%] chance of following up with a automatic Flail attack.

"Slam your shield into a foe and follow up with a smash to the face.


Rock Slam
Knocks a target in melee range back by 3. If successful, follow up with a ranged attack that inflicts Daze for 3 turns.

"Use your shield to throw your target away and immediately follow up with a stoning punishment."


Fortified Stance
Sustained. Greatly increases defense but disables all ranged attacks and removes (but does not reset) the cooldown and knockback on Rock Slam. Costs no stamina. Defense increase based on skill level.

"Take cover behind your shield and engage a foe in a toe-to-toe battle."


Return Fire
Passive. [Skill level x 10%] chance that any ranged attack that is blocked will give an automatic retaliatory ranged attack. Cannot be used with Fortified Stance.

"Retaliate with your own form of deadly projectile."


Tinkerer (locked) Unlocked by imbuing any item.
Like the Alchemist, the Tinkerer has done extensive experiments on gemstones, but both came to completely different methods of use.

Technique / Marksmanship Strength
How to operate a winch, for dummies

Crossbow Mastery
Just like other mastery techniques, increases damage with Crossbows - however each rank also increases attack speed (reduced attack speed by 5%) with crossbows.

"1) Point
2) Shoot
3) Reload"


Hammer
Strike an enemy with your crossbow, stunning it for 4 turns. If the attack lands, there is a [skill level x 20]% chance of following up with a ranged attack.

"Halt your foes for a time with this hammering attack. Might as well shoot them while you're at it."


Timed Shot
Do nothing for one turn. Anyone attempting to melee the user during this turn will be struck with a crossbow bolt at point blank range for a guaranteed crit and be knocked back. Critical multiplier is increased by [skill level x 10]%.

"The best defense is a good offense."


Puncture Shot
Inflicts [skill level x 80]% additional bleeding damage over 12 turns and penetrates all armor.

"Break on through, to the other side!"


Technique / Tinkering Strength
The Tinkerer's art involves the creation of explosive charges. Charges are wielded in the off-hand slot.

Craft Explosive Charges
Consume a gem to create 3 explosive charges of the same type. This takes 20 turns. Higher skill levels are required for higher ranks of gems.

"Turn a useless shiny object into a useful shiny object."


Fire Explosive Charge
Fire a bolt with an attached explosive charge, dealing [100 x Gem Rank] + [skill level x20]% elemental damage equally to all targets in a radius of [1 + Gem Rank]. The primary target still takes all of the damage (and any subsequent effects) that it would take from the ammunition in addition to this damage.

"Turn a shiny useful thing into a shiny big explosion."


Improved Charges

Explosive charges additionally inflict related status ailments (e.g. cold inflicts freeze). Higher skill levels and gem ranks inflict stronger ailments.

"Bring the wrath of the elements down upon your foes."


Efficient Manufacturing
Increases the number of charges made with Craft Explosive Charges by [skill level].

"You have learned to make cleaner cuts and made your charges easier to create."

Technique / Combat training (locked)
As-is


Phantom (locked) Unlocked by taking Archer and Slinger each to level 10.
A Phantom is the opposite of an illusion. Where an illusion is something visible, but not tangible, the Phantom is often tangible, but not visible. A master of shadows and light, the Phantom is an elite assassin who uses her abilities to merge with light and darkness alike. Many of their abilities work with melee weapons, but they are generally known for working at a distance.

Technique / Archery
Technique / Slinging
Technique / Marksmanship
All as above.

Technique / Field control (locked)
Note: Other archery classes do not have this locked.


Technique / Phantasmal Arts - basic Willpower
Arts that use shadows and deception to their advantage.

Shadow Strikes
Passive. Your attacks have a [skill level x 5%] chance to pin the target for 1 turn.

"Your attacks can pin a target's shadow to the ground, preventing your foe from moving for a brief moment."


Blindside
Fire a shot that confuses the target for 4 turns.

"Fire a shot that travels erratically and blends in with the surroundings, assailing your foe from unexpected directions."


Phantom Step
Step to any location in LOS, as long as there is nothing blocking the way. Cooldown is reduced with skill level.

"Step through the shadows and back out at another location."


Mirror Step
Teleport to the location symmetrically opposite your opponent, regardless of LOS. If the destination tile is occupied, the skill fails and the player immediately is reduced to zero stamina. If the target is still in LOS after teleporting, you take a free shot at [skill level x 20%] + 100% damage.

"Invoke the reflective properties of a mirror, and become yourself on the other side."


Technique / Phantasmal Arts - advanced (locked) Willpower
Further down the rabbit hole

Phantom Shots
Each time this ability is used, your next ranged attack will have 1 extra attack, up to a maximum of the level of your Phantom Shots skill. Cooldown 20.

"Use your power to create an extra phantom attack."


Fade
Passive. Taking no action, movement, damage, or status ailment (including saturation) for [11 - skill level] turns causes you to fade into the background. In this state, enemies cannot detect your presence in any way. Once faded, you can move around at a 50% speed reduction. Enemies within LOS have a 110 - [skill level x 15]% chance to detect you for each time you move. If detected, you lose the Faded status immediately.

"Take a cue from a chameleon."


Phantom's Burden
Instantly removes saturation effects and resets all infusion and rune cooldowns. Cooldown is equal to [number of turns remaining on your saturation effects] x (20 - [skill level x 2]) + 50 - [skill level x 5]. When the cooldown is complete, the saturations are returned to you at half duration, stacking the potency and duration with any newly incurred effects.

"Shrug your burdens off on the other you."


Doppleganger
Creates a stationary shadow clone of yourself at the target location that fires on your target, mimicking any ranged attacks you make, including skills, for [skill level x 2] + 3 turns. The doppleganger's attacks must make their own accuracy and critical checks separately. Monsters will ignore the doppleganger. Note that Mirror Step only causes the shot to be taken; the doppleganger does not move.

"Come forth, my twin. Let us destroy all the evils on this plane."


Technique / Phantasmal Arts - utility Willpower
[This tree is non-linear]
Bring the light and shadow to your side.

Phantom Quiver
Passive. [Skill level x 5]% chance that quivered ammunition is not consumed.

"Your quiver always seems to contain that one last shot ... "


Phantom Touch
Pick up a target item in LOS, up to a range of 2 + [skill level].

"Carry objects with the light itself."


Phantom's Visage
Passive. [Skill level x 3]% chance of inflicting domination upon all attacking targets.

"The shadow tricks that play across your face cause the weaker-willed to flee."


Displaced Figure
Passive. [Skill level x 20]% of all incoming projectiles miss their mark as long as the player's last action was movement.

"A blurry image becomes difficult to ascertain as it moves about, but when it is still, it is just a target."



Sniper (locked) -- Unlocked by scoring 4 or more critical hits in a single use of Piercing Arrow.

Technique / Archery
Technique / Marksmanship
As above

Technique / Combat training (locked)
As-is

Technique / Assassination Cunning
The art of making things alive become dead.
This tree is intentionally designed so that nearly any character could make use of it.

Anatomy
Passive. Physical critical rate is boosted by [skill level x 2]%.

"By studying the vital areas of countless creatures, you know where to strike to inflict the most damage on any foe.


Trained Killer
Passive. Killing an enemy with a critical hit has a [skill level x 20]% chance of making your next skill or attack instantaneous.

"You revel in a job well done, moving on to your next mark with glee."


Assassin's Hand
Passive. All critical hits have a [skill level x 2]% chance to instantly kill a target. Does not work on Elites.

"Critical hits are often critical hits."


Assassin's Blood
Passive. Whenever critically hit, regenerate [skill level x 10]% of the damage taken over 5 turns.

"Your experience in delivering critical blows leaves you in a trance whenever you yourself are struck by one."


Technique / Sniping Dexterity
Dear Diary,
today, I shot someone who didn't know where I was.


Center of Mass
Sustained. Ranged attacks are guaranteed to hit, but cannot crit. All ranged damage causes [skill level x 10%] extra bleed damage over 3 turns.

"Aiming primarily for the massive portion of your foe instead of the critical parts causes profuse bleeding and reliable shooting."


Swift Feet
Increase movement speed by [dexterity x 2]% for [skill level x 3] turns.

"Can't smash me if you can't catch me."


Superior Position
Whenever any form of teleportation affects the character, regardless of source, gain [skill level x 100%] movement speed for one global turn.

"You are always where you need to be."


Absolute Focus
Sustained. Ranged attacks take twice as long to execute, but are guaranteed to crit. Critical multiplier increased by [skill level x 10]%. Does not stack with skills. Note that the shot must still connect.

Nothing will distract you from this shot. NOTHING.




Now, I don't expect these to be implemented. I just think they would be really cool. I labelled this thread a work-in-progress because I think it could be improved upon, even just as a concept. Obviously, egos would need to be implemented for the new classes and their skills. So even without modifying the classes directly, there's work to be done. But given that this took me 4 hours just to write up, I don't feel I want to spend time doing that unless DG himself expresses interest in reviving the Archer as a category instead of an afterthought of the Warrior archetype.

A lot of nice talent ideas in this post Silvermoon.

Edit : Minor editing turned huge, moved to new post below

This is a much larger change to classes than any that have been implemented so far. That being said, it does look pretty good. Some more specific comments:

Tinkering: This uses a heavily consumable resource. Alchemists get 40-80 attacks per gem, in addition to having the ability to create more through extract gems. 3-8 attacks per gem would make them very limited as ammunition for a talent.

Phantom Shots: if I understand it correctly, you could get 6 attacks for the price of 1, which would make it extremely powerful (beyond anything else) when fully charged.

I couldn't see myself using Phantom Touch, because item collection isn't very much of an issue.

Anatomy: it's less powerful than other, similar skills, I would consider adding critical hit damage modifier as well.

Trained Killer: This could very easily lead to chain killing entire rooms instantly. Aim + some equipment can boost crit rate near 100%, and having an instant attack with 100% chance of another could be very powerful.

Centre of Mass: +50% damage from bleed damage is about as good as a critical hit, which removes the main downside of this talent (less damage) while keeping the advantage (good accuracy)

Absolute Focus: Decreased attack speed can be made less detrimental by activating it, using skills (Volley of Arrows, Scattershot, etc...) than deactivating it when everything is on cooldown. Doubling the damage and halving the attack rate has the effect of making talents much more powerful, without increasing their cost or cooldown.

This looks good, I hope to be able to play a couple of these classes.

I like the general thrust of the ideas, However I would propose that Crossbows be the staple of the untrained, as their operation is simple, Point and shoot and most "fighter" types will be primarily strength based, Archery requires a great deal of training to come close to an untrained standard of crossbow accuracy across short to medium ranges (it is still English law thought not enforced, that every man over the age of 14 *must* practice archery for at least 4 hours every Sunday, a separate law enforces that every child over the age of Seven must be bought a bow, two arrows, and be taught how to shoot else the father will face a fine ^_^ these were instated to ensure that the English levies would never face a shortfall of trained archers)

The slow speed of Crossbows means that for the untrained consecutive shots will take a Loooong time, But the untrained are probably only going to want to shoot once, close to melee and reload after.

So I suggest that for a non-archer class Shooting a crossbow works like this. You "Shoot" a Crossbow. it takes one turn. at 100% speed. Now "Shoot" has been replaced with "Load Crossbow" (you change to a bow or a sling and it will now say shoot, back to a crossbow and its "load crossbow" again to prevent abuse) "Load Crossbow" takes 2 Consecutive turns at 100% speed, or one at 75% speed or whatever time frame you wish to use. Crossbowmen get a sustain "Speed loader" Which can be a zero resource sustain or a small stamina cost as you see fit that "lets them fire and reload the crossbow in one fluid, practiced motion" Which takes only a single turn, at whatever attack speed is appropriate, decreasing with rank. This way you can drop the sustain at any time, to fire a 1 turn shot, and have an empty bow, and do other things, retreat, melee, cast spells, use items, or you can "speed load" which is faster for sustained firing, and dosn't involve alternating between actions each turn.

This gives a realistic way of handling a rapid firing practiced expert, the amateur who only expects, and needs "One opening shot" and the Expert who gets "One last shot" and drops the bow.

Balance wise this makes it more viable for non archer classes to use a bow occasionally, as the damage from a bow or sling currently is really pithy without any active talents or a multiplier form bow/sling master there isn't often a good reason to spend a turn switching to ranged weapon, a turn firing, and a turn switching weapons back when you could be doing more constructive things like gap closing, of popping infusions. As the crossbow is natively hard-hitting front-loaded damage, it gives the player some punchy "first strike" capability to those with no or limited ranged options at the expense of a little attention and down time after the battle, which is exactly how it should be.

Considering how long I spent writing this, it is nice to see positive feedback.

Lukep: I realize this would be absolutely massive changes to implement. I wrote this more to get the ball rolling than to actually see any of it implemented (though I'd like to see it), as I've always been fond of archers and other ranged attackers, and I felt that the move to the Warrior tree was going to minimize the influence of traditional ranged combat in the game as a whole.

I am literally employed as a game tester, so the idea of going through and balancing something that's not even in a game not only feels like work, but it's something I'm acutely aware of and intentionally tried to ignore the consequences of. I largely wrote this with the belief that if any of it was implemented, balance would then become an actual concern to address, but until then I wanted to let my creativity flow to the maximum extent possible. I believe it also shows, in how complete I tried to be in my presentation.

That said, immediately upon reading your concerns, it took a matter of moments to consider the statements and come up with solutions.

Tinkering: That was the exact intent, as Radius 6 AoEs for the top level gems are not exactly something you want to have being 'common' use. The tinkerer has no actual resource to manage like an alchemist or a mage would with mana or a summoner with equilibrium, and they still have potent tools at their disposal. It would largely be a class that is defined around critical decision making in when and where to use the abilities available to them, due to artificial limitations. If it really became an issue, making Extract Gems a questable skill for Tinkerers may be a valid solution. Alternatively, have lower level gems produce a higher base amount of charges.

Phantom Shots: 6 attacks for the price of 1 ... with 101 turns of preparation without a single ranged attack. At that level of potency, it is admittedly strong -- however the skill is immensely limited for a character who is primarily a ranged fighter if you're trying to spend 101 turns without fighting back. While I did not state it explicitly, it was intended that it doesn't work with skills, only regular attacks. Diminishing returns could also be applied as a damage adjustment (-5% total damage per attack or similar) if too overpowered.

Phantom Touch: There are occasional instances where an item I have wanted is on the other side of an enemy you don't feel like killing. The skill could be revised to allow the opening and closing of doors at a distance as well, giving tactical benefits.

Anatomy: True, but none of those skills are available natively to the Archers, and given how the entire tree is designed for high levels of synergy, it could become messy if raised too high.

Trained Killer: Multiple solutions come to mind, such as a cooldown on its frequency, or reducing the chance to skill level x 15% (or even x10%). I would prefer reduced chance over enforced waiting, however.

Centre of Mass: Not really. Unless my understanding of game mechanics is flawed (and it might be, I haven't really studied it), a critical hit STARTS with a base damage output of 200% damage (a +100% critical multiplier). Given that the class is heavily built toward critical strikes in the first place, the bleed damage benefit is somewhat minimized, thus this ability is primarily for enemies who are difficult to hit overall or are otherwise difficult to critically hit. Bleed damage also is not instantaneous (though I do believe it stacks), whereas comparatively speaking, critical damage is rather front-loaded.

Absolute Focus: In the original post it states that this is for regular shots only, and doesn't stack with skills.


Elkan: You raise some very solid points that I hadn't considered, and in hindsight, my comment about bows being the only practical weapon for the un-trained is rather ill-conceived, even in context of my own statements. I myself wrote that Crossbows would have the highest accuracy and most damage, which is pretty much spot-on for what an untrained individual should need.

I particularly like the idea of reloading a crossbow being an active ability, making it possible, as you say, to have a potent 'fire-and-forget' weapon for melee classes, however, in execution this adds an obnoxious need to micromanage your equipment to utilize it on a consistent basis. I don't mind complexity, but micromanagement on that level is tedious and (more to the point) not-fun. At some point, realism has to be dropped in favor of playability.

The only way I could see such a system implemented painlessly is to have two separate abilities - or rather, one ability that alternates it's function. The first fires a crossbow and then swaps to a secondary weapon set. Realistically, this should probably operate at 150% speed, as you're DRAWING A WEAPON OUT, but at that speed, you could accomplish the same feat now with a regular bow. So for the ability to be useful, it needs to occur at a normal attack speed. The second function can be manually invoked if needed, and causes you to switch weapons BACK and immediately reload if needed, costing 2 turns for the reload and 1 turn for the weapon swap -- but most critically, it should allow auto-casting of 'swap weapon and reload crossbow' with the condition of 'when no enemy is in LOS'. Obviously checks also need to be made for 'melee weapon in alternate weapon slot' and '(un)loaded crossbow in alternate weapon slot' respectively.

Silvermoon wrote:Centre of Mass: Not really. Unless my understanding of game mechanics is flawed (and it might be, I haven't really studied it), a critical hit STARTS with a base damage output of 200% damage (a +100% critical multiplier). Given that the class is heavily built toward critical strikes in the first place, the bleed damage benefit is somewhat minimized, thus this ability is primarily for enemies who are difficult to hit overall or are otherwise difficult to critically hit. Bleed damage also is not instantaneous (though I do believe it stacks), whereas comparatively speaking, critical damage is rather front-loaded.

Clearin' this up for yeh: Crits come in at the end of the damage mutlipliers, but before on-strike/on-hit damage (which only is effected by damage% boosters). The base critmod is 150%, which would multiply (base damage * any talent multipliers). The talent you're talking about would simply be damage equal to a guaranteed crit with no additional critmod, at least at a effective talent level of 5. If you had the standard mastery for a unique class tree, it'd end up at tlvl 6.5, or 165% total damage. This would be a guaranteed crit with +15% critmod, on every hit -- though, of course, a portion of that damage would be over time.

Sustained would probably be too much, but a nice length (say 2-3+raw tlvl, perhaps, or 2-3+raw tlvl/2) timed effect might be appropriate. Alternately, something like Shattering Impact -- which has a similar percentage of damage boost -- where there's a large sustain cost and a further sustain cost per attack made under the sustain might work. Note, though, that shattering impact is probably a bad thing to try to base your balance around -- it's probably nerf-worthy as is and even more powerful than what you're proposing here

Now, as re: critmod, that +15% crit mod isn't much, at all. I've personally pushed critmod >250% before (not easy, but possible with the right kit and talents). That said, however, an effective boost of 165% for every attack, every turn, is massively more powerful than almost any other talent in the game As folks that have pushed crit% to or over 100% can say, having what amounts to a crit each and every turn would be an incredible damage multiplier, especially if the center of mass effect applied to other talents. If you compare the proposed sustain to actives like, say, slash (the base cursed melee talent), you'd be basically getting an active talent worth of multiplier each and every turn you had the sustain going. Which would itself be multiplied by other talents.

Little jumbled up in there, but I think I got all the points, heh.

Last statements: Overall like how this is presented, and would love to see the ideas expanded upon. Archers getting subsumed under the warrior metaclass isn't necessarily a final decision thing -- the reason it happened was because there was basically nothing differentiating between slingers and archers. I wouldn't be surprised if, if we had some new archer classes, the archer metaclass would be opened back up for business.

Thanks for clearing those up, I had some mistaken ideas about the intent of some of the talents.

I really like the mobility talents that you added, it is one aspect of archers they could benefit the most from.

Here is an explanation of how my system would would out in more detail.

For the untrained guy using a crossbow as a bit of extra front-load its going to be situational, occasional use thing. You either come around a corner and see a big enough gap between you and your foe that you have time to switch, fire, switch, or you have already scouted out the enemy, and can switch to a bow before it begins to close.

lets assume an material quality 1 X bow takes one turn to fire, two to load.

Situation one. Untrained guy comes into a clearing with a 3 square gap between him and a tough melee only opponent worth softening up

Turn 1, Switch From sword and board to X-bow
Turn 2. Fire X-bow this takes 1 normal turn at 100% attack speed
Turn 3 Switch back to Sword and board
Turn 4 enemy has now closed to melee, close combat ensues
After the fight the coast is clear, you switch back to your X-bow (Which now says "unloaded Elm Crossbow") and press the "shoot button" The bow is empty, so it instead spends two consecutive turns reloading. the next time he presses "shoot" it will fire
Its an extra couple of key presses reloading, but its not a huge hassle for an "insurance" ability. and not much more complex than the current implementation would be


Situation two, A young crossbow expert against two snakes and a skeletal mage all at range in an open room.
The skeletal mage is a threat but you want to deal with the snakes before they close to melee, as you have good magic resists, but poison could be a problem (yeah, contrived, I know)

Turn 1. You know That you need to take down rapid foes, in succession at range. You check that your sustain "Speed loading" is up, it is. you have it at rank three, which auto-reloads after each shot, but cuts reloading time in half. You fire off a steady shot at one of the snakes, Killing it.
Turn 2. This turn is skipped, as you are reloading automatically
Turn 3. The snakes have got quite close, and the mage has plinked at your rune of shielding, nearly breaking it so you use diesngage to outrange the mage and get more distance on the other snake.
Turn 4. You fire on the second snake Killing it.
Turn 5. Skipped, Automatically reloading without prompting
Turn 6. Your health is looking a little concerning as the mage got off a crit last turn. you have enough stamina for one big attack, if it crits, it will take out the skeleton, you have enough HP to last one turn, but two turns would see you dead for sure. you know you can't risk the two turns "Speed Loading" uses so you switch off your sustain. (This is instant cast to enable disable, like chants etc.) You fire off your big attack,
Turn 7. Your attack hits but dosn't crit, the skeleton looks just looks pissed and you are one spell away from death. Your Crossbow is now empty. You pop a rune of teleportation and get the hell out.

This highlights how the sustain automates the loading and cuts out spammy actions for a class based around the ranged attacks but if you need to revert to a front loaded damage, reload later mechanic with a bit more micro, you can do it by simply toggling the sustain, giving quite a lot of flexibility It means that the very slow, lumbering rate of fire of the crossbowman can be switched to a quick "cut and run" parting shot when the need arises. without having it be too much hassle. After such a desperate escape you take the time to heal up and manually reload. Alternatively you reactivate your sustain, which loads the crossbow as soon as you switch it on. (At the faster rate)

The mechanics of it are a bit more complex than what is currently employed, but the platform is nothing if not flexible enough to handle it (Just I couldn't code it ^^ )

basically long story short, Guy who uses a crossbow as a situational tool micro's it a bit. But that's fine you micro a bit to use your digger, when the need calls for it, or to find that one spell your achmage took for a rainy day.
Guy who uses a crossbow all the time never has to manually reload, because the sustain does it for you, *EXCEPT* when emergencies call for it, and that is when you are happy to micro because you are taking things slow, weighing the risks, being careful.f

In fact it gives the crossbow user tremendous flexibility because you can choose to just chain fire and reload spam without thinking about it much or clicking a lot when its safe to do so, or precisely micro your firing and reloading around your mobility and the enemy turn order, Choosing to move into sight, Fire, and duck behind cover to reload, forcing the ranged casters to close.. etc.

An ability you could set for "Allow out of combat auto-reloading" Would be a very convenient and useful feature to add though.

My thoughts on automatic skill usage could probably fill a thread bigger than this one. Needless to say, I like the concept, and for some abilities I greatly welcome the feature. But the execution could really use more work.

Did real-life crossbows really require strength? I suppose it's not so important, but it struck me as odd.

You need a lot of strength to pull the string into place, at least...

onyhow wrote:You need a lot of strength to pull the string into place, at least...

I guess! But I always thought that longbows required a lot more. Isn't part of the point of a crossbow that you don't have to strain to keep it pulled back like you do with a normal bow?

@Aquillion: Too true...but then again, but strength to draw the bow did not depend on archer's arm strength...it's back and shoulder muscles...not sure if that's considered as strength as defined in this game or not...