ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

It'd be neat if undead could win acceptance after one quest or another, after which they no longer need to wear the cloak to avoid getting attacked in towns. I'm not sure whether being stuck with the cloak of deception is meant to be a balancing factor for them or not -- I mean, they can switch to other cloaks in dungeons as long as they remember to swap back, so it's more of an annoyance than anything else (plus, it gives them a fairly powerful cloak early on -- if it were possible for them to win acceptance and no longer need to use the cloak for the whole game, it could be toned down.)

Perhaps after the storm quest in Derth, say? Or would that be too early?

It might be a bit unrealistic, of course, for one quest to affect your reputation both in Maj'Eyal and the Far East, but this might be a preferable acceptable break from reality -- or your initial fight in the East could do it for you there (she calls you an Undead anyway, so apparently Sun Paladins are not so upset about undead as long as they're on their side...)

Someone mentioned before a quest to make the cloak effect permanent. Similar idea really.

It could also be a sustain you learn.

Another thought is a village of free-willed undead someplace remote so undead characters could go and find acceptance (and even shops!! or undead only quests!!).

In the vein of racial starting quests, I think every race should have a mid-game quest, much like the backup guardians. The return to Reknor could be a much more momentous occasion for Dwarves; Shaloren could have the chance to join the Rhaloren faction, as was suggested by someone in my (misguided) attempt to create a playable Rhaloren race; the Yeeks could answer a call from the Way; etc. Such a quest for skeletons/ghouls would be awesome.

I think this is another quest that could have solutions via Angolwen or Zigur. In each case, you (somehow) become aware of ancient spells that would bring you back to near-life, perhaps by finding a Tome of Deception in the East (or in Telos' basement?). You then can search out those who would help you complete the ritual. Angolwen would help after defeating Urkis; as for Zigur, consenting to the trial for learning Antimagic would give you the opportunity to start the quest (since currently Undead get severely gimped for taking Antimagic).

The rewards would be slightly different - a sustain, in both cases, that gives you a humanoid form just like the Cloak of Deception. The arcane (Angolwen) version would have some sort of magical bonus while active (I'm blanking here); the natural (Zigur) version would allow you to use infusions while active.

Alternatively, drop the Zigur option; the inscription restriction was clearly accounted for in the race development.

Aquillion wrote:It'd be neat if undead could win acceptance after one quest or another, after which they no longer need to wear the cloak to avoid getting attacked in towns. I'm not sure whether being stuck with the cloak of deception is meant to be a balancing factor for them or not -- I mean, they can switch to other cloaks in dungeons as long as they remember to swap back, so it's more of an annoyance than anything else (plus, it gives them a fairly powerful cloak early on -- if it were possible for them to win acceptance and no longer need to use the cloak for the whole game, it could be toned down.)

Perhaps after the storm quest in Derth, say? Or would that be too early?

It might be a bit unrealistic, of course, for one quest to affect your reputation both in Maj'Eyal and the Far East, but this might be a preferable acceptable break from reality -- or your initial fight in the East could do it for you there (she calls an Undead anyway, so apparently Sun Paladins are not so upset about undead as long as they're on their side...)

IIRC quite a few people call you undead. The arena dude at Derth, the assassin leader, etc. "Undead" is your race, even though they should be calling you cornac or something with the cloak on.

edge2054 wrote:Someone mentioned before a quest to make the cloak effect permanent. Similar idea really.

It could also be a sustain you learn.

Another thought is a village of free-willed undead someplace remote so undead characters could go and find acceptance (and even shops!! or undead only quests!!).

Isn't there a necromancer lore which implied the people at Derth were all secretly undead wearing cloaks? I remember taking off my cloak there and getting attacked by the people.

Dwarf_Hammer wrote:Isn't there a necromancer lore which implied the people at Derth were all secretly undead wearing cloaks? I remember taking off my cloak there and getting attacked by the people.

Well, obviously they all have to keep up the facade. None of them know the others are undead, so when they see you they scream "attack!" and rush at you like any human would.

This kinda does make sense thematically. Other races are naturally (and rightfully) distrustful of Undead; however, over the course of the game you prove yourself and gain acceptance.

And rather than just being a reward for one quest, this could arise over several. For example, after successfully rescuing the lumberjacks, the merchant, maybe some escorts, and the town of Derth, word of your deeds starts to get around, people realize you're a helluva guy.

...and that's the start of an actual malleable rep system.

I'm not sure that that's a good thing.

Definitely sure that would be a good thing

Probably a lot of work to get functioning in a not-violently-abusable way, though. Not sure how such a thing would be implemented, really, but T4 being what it is, some way to get in good with multiple factions and then start playing them off each other (with hilarious -- in the 'end in hilarity' sense -- consequences for getting caught doing it) would fit right in. And would be pretty awesome, I think. I'd love to lead the halfling empire to the entrance to Nur island, ferex, and maybe to the orcish breeding grounds. Slaver halflings ascendant!

Anyway, could probably look at Gearhead for one of the few high-functioning (ish) faction systems I've seen in a roguelike. The lack of repeatable quests would probably make faction-opinion shifting events much more meaningful in the long term, hum.

I've never seen a good faction system, and it's especially hard to shoehorn it into an existing game. And even more so when that game is already geared around dungeon crawling rather than NPCs giving sidequests.

Undead have restrictions, and you have to live (or unlive) with them. No Melinda-loving, no runes, no anti-magic, and keep the damned cloak on you smelly corpse. Considering the setting it's unrealistic to turn the whole of Maj'Eyal onto the side of a retching, gnawing Ghoul. And moreover it ruins the whole gameplay choice you make.

*fist shake* Undead can take anti-magic just fine, damnit! It just basically wrecks them. I'm okay with this, personally.

And it's infusions, of course, not runes, they don't have access to.

What I'd like to see is a fortress option or miniquest that lets you replace the cloak's arcane power with an unknown power source. Possibly the option to do that to any item -- make it powered entirely by 'unknown' instead of whatever it was previously. So long as it was expensive enough (15-30 power, probably), it wouldn't be terribly abusable and would help lighten the anti-magic burden a bit.

As for the undead acceptance thing, in the case of factions, it might make sense with some of them. I could see being let into, maybe, magetown or elviratown, possibly yeekland (apparently undead can experience the way... somehow) if that ever becomes a possibility. Perhaps limited specifically to skeletons, as they are a bit less odious.

Still, no one seems to complain about reavers and corruptors (who spew highly contagious disease all over the place, among other things) or the afflicted, so giving the undead some leeway doesn't sound too terribly harsh, really. Actual necromancers in th'svn/pre-b32 wander around with their entire undead horde trailing along behind 'em without anyone batting an eye, after all.

... though I'm not sure what happens when they become a lich. Should probably test that out, hrm...

Grey wrote:Undead have restrictions, and you have to live (or unlive) with them. No Melinda-loving, no runes, no anti-magic, and keep the damned cloak on you smelly corpse. Considering the setting it's unrealistic to turn the whole of Maj'Eyal onto the side of a retching, gnawing Ghoul. And moreover it ruins the whole gameplay choice you make.

But keeping the cloak on isn't a real restriction. You can take it off and swap it with something else just fine in a dungeon. You just have to remember to switch it back before you return home. It's an annoyance, not an actual mechanical drawback.

(In fact, mechanically it's purely an advantage, since you get a free +5 magic / physical power cloak. The fact that you have to wear it in towns has no mechanical implications whatsoever, since you're not going to be doing any fighting there anyway.)

Frumple wrote:As for the undead acceptance thing, in the case of factions, it might make sense with some of them. I could see being let into, maybe, magetown or elviratown, possibly yeekland (apparently undead can experience the way... somehow)

I think that it's meant to be a collective unconscious between all sentient things or somesuch; it's not like Equilibrium / Nature.

Though, that makes me wonder if the Way can be a power source for objects in the way arcane energies and nature are. I guess they'd have to be sentient first.

Near as we can tell, the way's psionic, more or less. There can definitely be psi powered items, because there already is a psi powered item. Bloodcaller, to be specific.

Has interesting implications for what psi is/could be, though, since it apparently isn't a physical phenomenon -- ghouls might have enough meatsie bits to support whatever brain/other-organ (liver!) function would generate psi, but skeletons definitely don't. DG probably has a fluff answer hidden somewhere that explains it

Either that, or undead are going to get locked out of psi classes, too, which would be annoying as all get out.

The fact that undead are sapient seems like enough reason for them to be capable of psionic powers, perhaps uniquely so.

Perhaps, perhaps... it's just the implications are interesting. It might mean that it's at least technically possible for some of the arcane casters to create artificial and/or highly controlled psi-users -- brain in a jar type stuff.

I could totally see a yeek sidequest where you come down like a hammer on a laboratory complex that's trying to create an artificial 'counter Way'. Probably those ruddy halflings trying it, too. But yeah... mass mind control via magically constructed psi entities, either objects of some sort or magically enslaved sentients? A necromancer calling up mindslayer minions instead of normal ones? Stuff like that sounds like it would be at least possible, given that undead can wield psi power.

Totally calling arcane psi-dystopia ending. Probably something halfling mages or necromancers could aim for