ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Basically as subject. Right now, they have precisely one talent tree different. Other than that, they are entirely identical. This is not really enough reason to have two separate classes.

So instead, roll 'em together. Call the new class 'marksman', or something along those lines, and start them off with both a sling and a bow, as how temporal wardens start with dual-wield and bow. Either have the specialist trees locked, or introduce new advanced bow/sling trees for the class.

Thoughts?

Or we could give each advanced trees that help to separate them more

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... t=skirmish

On second thought I'd like this idea a lot more if Slings got nerfed some. Especially in the range department. Right now a Sling is basically a low APR bow that you can use a shield with. The two weapon specific trees are all that really separate these weapons and piercing arrow, volley of arrows, etc are about the only reason to use a bow (all stats being equal).

Also http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27254 to further differentiate slingers and archers. Also, if you want to nerf slings don't decrease their range (imho)! Otherwise, I agree, edge.

Honestly, I say merge them.

You can still introduce advanced trees. Just have some trees work off of dex and others work off of cunning. No matter how much you add, though, the foundational concepts of the two classes are too similar to really make it worth having separate classes.

Trying to separate them strikes me as similar to trying to have separate classes for fire and ice mages. Getting rid of that concept was a good idea, I think. Merging slingers and archers is also a good idea. If someone wants to combine those two advanced trees in some weird build -- why stop them?

Remember, the only real effect of dividing something between two classes is to explicitly prevent players from combining their talents. There are no talents here that players need to be explicitly prevented from combining; and I don't see any real advantage to shoehorning in such talents just to justify the split. Advanced bow-only or sling-only talents can be introduced to the same class in the same way archmages have advanced ice- or fire- or stone- or lightning-focused trees; that doesn't require separate classes.

And basically, dividing classes up too much results in classes that only have one obvious build. That's boring. Go for fewer classes with more build options, to let players customize their characters however they choose. Divisions make sense when the fundamental assumptions and gameplay of the class is different -- ranged vs. close-range classes, or classes with different resource mechanics, or classes with powerful core primary talents that totally define how they play, or classes meant to be defined by key holes in their capabilities.

But it doesn't really make sense here, and I don't really see how it could be made to make sense. Extra advanced talent trees can be added just fine even if they're combined into one class.

Great post Aquillion, probably the most convincing I've heard for merging the two classes (and I'm skeptical about it).

Of course the other option is to make a bigger divide between the two play styles which may mean making the weapons less similar. Slings can be used with a shield, the slinger could become sorta a ranged tank (I still say slings should be nerfed because they're not two-handed but that's another story). The true archer could be the bow user who's only real defense would be his mobility, wits, and dps.

Even if you did differentiate them a bit they are still immensely similar in terms of all the other talent trees supporting them. Playstyle just isn't going to change all that much.

However if one wanted to differentiate them then I'd say slings should be low range, high crit power, whilst bows would be long range, fast shot, more armour piercing.

Yeah, but the problem of merging them is the starting talents & stats.
How do you correctly do only one class that can do both

darkgod wrote:Yeah, but the problem of merging them is the starting talents & stats.
How do you correctly do only one class that can do both

Well, make the starting talents ones that work for both slings and archers. As for stats - well, put stat bonuses in both Strength and Cunning.

The one thing I'm somewhat worried about is equipment - maybe they should start with BOTH a sling and a bow? But which one would be equipped? Could put them both into inventory but that feels slightly...off, somehow.

Cheap bows and cheap slings are pretty easy to acquire relatively early on. If the character isn't starting with any bow/sling-specific stuff anyway, then the only real problem with handing someone the "wrong" one to start with is the statline differences. Make it race-based?

Also, it seems like there should be some reason for slingers to not use a shield. Possibly nerf sling damage a bit (so that bows have a reason to exist), but improve speed by a notch if you're using a sling with no shield?

Sirrocco wrote:Also, it seems like there should be some reason for slingers to not use a shield. Possibly nerf sling damage a bit (so that bows have a reason to exist), but improve speed by a notch if you're using a sling with no shield?

Well, shields DO have fatigue...but I guess it's not that significant a penalty.

Well they both could be equipped. One in the main hand and one in the offhand.

I do see what DG is saying though about the stat allocation. But going +2 str and cun and +5 dex feels alright to me.

Zonk wrote:The one thing I'm somewhat worried about is equipment - maybe they should start with BOTH a sling and a bow? But which one would be equipped? Could put them both into inventory but that feels slightly...off, somehow.

Pick one based on whether your Dex or Cunning is higher? Or make it race-based, based on whether your race has a higher Dex or Cunning... same thing, really.

As for talents, you could merge Archery and Sling mastery, and put it in a new tree that supports characters who want to be able to use both bows and slings interchangeably. This would require three new talents for that tree and a new one for both the archery and sling trees, though... and I'm not sure how feasible that choice could be made.

Or it could be placed in the general combat talents, but unavailable to most other people (like Exotic Weapons), unlocked for others if they learn Shoot.

Archers and slingers are now merged into one class, which is now a warrior sub-class. I think Aquillion's convincing arguments above are a big reason why this got done.

It looks like merging the two classes was absolutely painless. The main (minor) difference is the initial stat allocations: Aside from that minor change, you can play the class exactly as you would the previous slinger or archer class (or some weird bow/sling hybrid if desired ).