ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I got my first character to the far east and unlocked the divine classes. I had been really wanting to try these out for a while, but it took a little save scumming to get to the far east and do the unlocks.
It would be great if newer characters had a divine option earlier in the game through a quest or something so they can play around with a divine class type. my 2 cents....

Unlocking is a reward for completing part of the game. The later part of the game would be more uninteresting if there were nothing there to unlock.

Instead of save scumming one can play on easy mode in order to unlock and learn the game.

Mithril wrote:Unlocking is a reward for completing part of the game.

I think the reward for completing part of the game should be...having enjoyed that part of the game(for the player) and in-game rewards/experience(for the character), rather than giving out rewards on successive playthroughs by giving more choices.

Yes, I know unlocks are not going away, and they can give you a sense of achievement when you get them, and you have something to work towards but...does the game truly become boring after you've unlocked everything?
I don't think so.

Also some people might greatly enjoy the playstyle offered by some unlocked classes, but not so much the basic ones.
I also think 'you need to learn the game to be worthy of even attempting to play some classes some' isn't a very good argument.
Why not let people try this complicated stuff and let them figure out? Maybe they'll get it on the first try, if not they can choose themselves to play something else for a while.
Are we afraid that trying an 'advanced' class and having a bad experience with it could turn off new players?
There could be new players who are turned off by having to unlock something like a 'proper' mage.

Again, unlocks aren't going away - I'm not proposing that(although they're one of the few features in T4 which I think we could do without).
But do they really have to be so hard to get?


More related to THIS specific thread:
I don't see how it would be bad to make some unlocks easier- although thematically, I'm not sure how to explain it for the Divine classes...

Here's an idea: perhaps a long time ago an Anorithil/Paladin ended up in the West through some portal, and if you were the proper level you could find him wandering around?

Note that Anorithils CAN show up as escorts in the West...maybe rescuing X(with X..10?20?) Anorithils NPCs could give you the unlock.

A better idea could be that have everything unlocked from the start on easy mode. So those who absolutely need can try out everything from the very beginning.

Mithril wrote:A better idea could be that have everything unlocked from the start on easy mode. So those who absolutely need can try out everything from the very beginning.

I wanted to suggest that myself except I was worried some 'hardcore'/'the game should be hard' players would think it was too extreme or silly.

So it feels a bit weird to read this idea coming from you(no offense , actually, you could consider being called a 'hardcore player' a compliment. Feel free to!).

I *do* agree this would be would be better and even more player-friendly!


And even somewhat meaningful when we eventually have proper online player profiles, so people can see which classes were 'really' unlocked through quests(or grinding...)and which that player can only play in Easy mode.
(Although now that I think about it, it could be meaningless if people could easily cheat to get the unlocks..oh well, can't have everything)

Unlocks are there for multiple reasons, one of them being to not overwhelm new players with 30 unknown choices.
Letting easy have them all would defeat that idea utterly since probably a new player will try easy mode first

Could it not be a good idea then to make all hybrid classes unlockables since they are more complex than the basic classes? And switch Archmage with Alchemist since Archmage is the "standard" mage?

Who says archmages are the standard ?
Alchemists walk the world openly while archmages hide in angolwen

I like the idea of Easy mode having all the classes unlocked, with perhaps a small number of exceptions, like cryomancers. Then Achievements could be disabled for Easy mode. Also I'd say it at least makes sense for Easy players to have access to Archmages, even if it doesn't fit the setting perfectly.

Related to helping new players - what if some of the class(and class type)description were lenghtened to include more info on the class, including basic suggestions on how to play them and how they are supposed to manage their resources?

Nothing big - this wouldn't be a strategy guide - just a way to let players know what to expect mechanically, too.

Personally, I'm a fan of the unlocks. I'm a fan of not having them happen all at once. I'd like more of them (not that anything current be locked, but that any newer classes and races start out locked). I think it adds to the game, and would rather *not* have them all open in easy mode.

...and one of the things that it does is it gets people to play races and classes that they otherwise wouldn't - both from the beginning "I've barely unlocked anything. Well, I suppose I'll try this one." and from the ongoing "well, I've just unlocked this class. Might as well see what I've won." Given how different the classes are from each other, and how differently they play from their base-angband equivalents, I think that's a very good thing. Alchemist is one of my favorite classes - and I might never have played it if it hadn't been the only true mage available from the beginning. I tried fighters and berserkers - I likely won't play a berserker again, but I might well go back to the fighter. I tried the warrior-mages and was unimpressed, but I tried them. I'm the sort of guy who would have immediately jumped into playing the undead races, and I'm certainly looking forward to unlocking them, but in the meantime I've developed a fondness for halflings and dwarves that will likely persist.

I'd also say that unlocking them in easy mode will make it that much more annoying for people who start playing in easy mode. They'll find a race/class or two that they really like to play, and then realize that if they want to play that race/class on normal difficulty they're going to be stuck grinding out achievements for an extended period of time on classes they don't enjoy. That doesn't sound like much fun.

I may never win this game. I've won precious few angband variants, and I've never won any version of TOME (not any of the mainline modules, anyway). Still, the unlocks give me something to strive for, and let me feel like I've achieved something even with characters who don't make it but so far.

Of course, more in-depth descriptions are rarely a bad thing.

Sirrocco wrote:I'd also say that unlocking them in easy mode will make it that much more annoying for people who start playing in easy mode. They'll find a race/class or two that they really like to play, and then realize that if they want to play that race/class on normal difficulty they're going to be stuck grinding out achievements for an extended period of time on classes they don't enjoy. That doesn't sound like much fun.

(emphasis added by me)
If you tell me the game having unlocks improves your game experience, I believe you. And I'm sure you're not the only one.

However what you wrote above sounds like an argument AGAINST unlocks to me.

With the way unlocks are now, these people would have grind/do stuff they might not enjoy anyway, AND they couldn't even try them out or enjoy them on Easy - which might sometimes have the opposite effect btw - maybe they will realize that class is NOT so fun/enjoyable as it sounded when reading about it. Happens.
But if grinding to unlock something you know you like isn't much fun...why not just allow people to play it immediately?

Maybe your argument is that these people couldn't(shouldn't?)know about the unlockable beforehand, so they'll just 'get used' to playing something they don't particularly like(and getting used doesn't imply 'learning to like' and then consider the unlock a nice surprise?
That feels artificial to me.

Again, I understand where you come from.
Unlocks can make things feel 'special'(even if it's just by forcing you to work for them), but they can also be a chore. 'Grinding' to me implies something not particularly pleasant which you only do for the reward at the end.

So my opinion is that unlock, if they're not being given by default in easy, should not be hard to obtain.

Some 'work, maybe.
Multiple playthroughs because of a counter, perhaps.

But not something that takes so much effort to get that it makes you play something you don't enjoy for a significant amount of time just to have a CHANCE of playing something you think you might enjoy. It's a game, not a job.

Something I'd consider for the counter-based unlocks: what if there was an alternate way to get them through a quest? Thus you could either do the quest or fill up the damage/kills/whatever counter.

You misunderstand my point.

Two possibilities:

- You start with nothing unlocked, and play for a while, you're playing classes that are new to you. You try a few classes, of the ones that are available to everyone. You'll probably find one or two that you enjoy, that you'll play repeatedly. As you unlock new things, you try those too. You enjoy some, do not enjoy others, and keep your favorites. As a downside, if you think that you know exactly what you want to play, and you're not interested in trying/enjoying other things, you may find this time frustrating.

- You start with everything unlocked, on easy mode. You try a few classes. It's entirely possible that none of the classes that you try initially are available to everyone. You probably find one or two that you enjoy, that you'll want to play repeatedly. You unlock nothing. It is possible that you'll branch out a few times and try a few other classes (which may or may not be generally available) and thus may add to the list of "classes that you enjoy playing" but it is likely that you will not experiment as much. Already, we see the first thing. People who have everything unlocked are likely to try fewer classes overall, as they start out thinking that they know exactly what they want to play. There are a lot of people who wouldn't look twice at an alchemist if they could play an archmage instead, and a decent number of those people would be missing out - our alchemists are different. Heck, our everything is different. Then they finally get to the point where they're comfortable with the game, and would like to up the difficulty a bit - and they're horked. They have four classes that they know and enjoy, and not one of them is unlocked in anything but easy. In order to unlock things in regular, they have to go back and try new classes, and in the back of their heads runs the refrain of "I wish I was playing a Sun Paladin right now" or whatever. They know what they like (not just think, but know) and they can't use it.

...also, it would honestly ruin it a bit for me. Unlocking something feels like an achievement, and as a reward, I get to play as the new thing and explore the new character type. That's significant. Sure, I could get there by cheating, but I'm happy to count it as real. If I could experiment with them just by clicking "easy", then the only reason I'm not trying out the playstyle is a sense of masochism or something. It would diminish the experience for me.

So, really, I would ask that they not be opened for the easy mode. I don't mind terribly if any specific class types get moved to an earlier unlock, but I'd really like to have a decent number of unlocks in the late game, so that I continue to have things to achieve as I'm dying horribly to the various things there. At the very least, if you must give the easy mode players all of the characters unlocked, I would suggest letting "win on easy mode" unlock everything - so that they have a way to progress up to the higher difficulties without having to temporarily *stop* playing whatever their now-favorite character class is.

As an alternate thought, to take care of the people that really, really, really want to play some *specific* class, let people unlock one class of their choice as a reward for passing the tutorial the first time (or perhaps just unlock it for easy mode, and transfer the unlock to normal mode as a reward for winning the game, if not unlocked previously). That way, they can all be satisfied that they can play their class-of-choice without having to pull back all of the unlocks for everyone, and you still haven't increased the breadth of choice for newbies *too* badly.

Two points.
1/ Some unlocks should be easier. While some classes are rather trivial to get (summoners, for instance), other are difficult (sun paladins) and some are even almost impossible (like cryo). I think that the requirements should be lowered.

2/ One problem with locked classes with new players is that it may give a wrong (and bad) impression on the game and on its set of classes (meeeehh, not real mages in this roguelike...).
I would suggest to have in the initial menu ALL the classes/races displayed, with the locked ones "greyed out". The standard description would appear, maybe in a different color, and an additional outlined sentence would state that this class/race is unavailable and would give some hints on the way to unlock it.

Exemples:
Archmages cannot be played until you have discovered the secret about mages
Pyromancers cannot be played until you are skilled enough in fire magic.
etc...

New players would this way have a good idea of the richness of the game and these description would be some kind of teasers...

Maybe beating the game on easy mode could be an unlock

Now we just need to think of a class for this.