ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Don't want to derail another thread with this thought, so I figured I'd make a new topic for it.

Currently mages are the only people with an item that restores their resource bar. This is in addition to a spell they can activate every 250 turns to restore their Mana, and natural regeneration of their resource to boot. I'm personally finding it makes the Far East pretty cheap - you can keep castings inferno like there's no tomorrow cause there's plenty of mana potions around to suck on. If every class were able to restore their resources so easily it would be a much more boring game.

Arcane and Shadow Blades now have a regen mana talent, so they can get by without potions.

For non-mages the potions are just something to sell, unless you pick up a spell from a quest. Personally I think it's a bit weird that you get a spell taught to you somehow, and can spam it as much as you want between level ups and plentiful potions. I'd suggest the quest reward spells be changed to zero-cost abilities with long cooldowns instead.

In the new setting magic is supposed to be reviled, and mages ostracised from society. Yet every potion shop sells mana potions by the bundle.

So, considering all of the above, I'd say scrap potions of mana, or at the very least make them rare and only purchasable in Angwolen.

I'm ambivalent about this.

It IS wrong that Mages have potions to restore their main resource but others don't.

But I'm also not a fan of making the game harder for everyone just because a few people think some things can be boring, especially if it's something avoidable with a bit of willpower/self-restraint(just don't use potions yourself ).


I see a few possibilities.

1)Keep mana potions as they are, maybe make them somewhat rarer, add potions of stamina, equilibrium(some of these potions might not count as magic - they could just be refreshing natural mixtures or whatever).
Note the 'somewhat rarer' - now all/most classes would be able to restore their resources at a price, but it would be more expensive.

2)Remove mana potions or make them far rarer(and not something you'd find in shops usually). However, boost 'natural' mana regen for Mages slightly, or add a generic passive(not sustained)+mana regen talent just like we have for stamina and life.

3)Make Mana potions(and possibly some other 'important' items)show up far less often(or not at all!)on higher difficulty levels.

Turn mana pot into "restorative" potions, that work correctly on all ressources, but are more expensive/rarer.

Now *that* would be good. Would it affect stamina as well?

I had actually thought about 'potions of restoration' before but didn't bother to post them.
It's a very nice idea - also means more of a chance of finding potions you actually need.

They should be significantly rarer but not excessively so.

Grey wrote:Now *that* would be good. Would it affect stamina as well?

Can't see why not.

Although perhaps SOME of the more exotic resource types might not be restored(vim? hate?)


Slightly related: if we want to reduce potion clutter in general, I wouldn't oppose combining potions of cure disease and cure poison into a single type(potions of curing?).

See I'm just getting the feeling right now that Grey is good at these games and doesn't realize his changes will make the game way harder for 90% of the rest of players. Grey, all your changes are always based on make the game harder harder harder harder. It seems to me that mages had better have more ways to refresh their pool than stamina users becuase stamina users can always just hit the monster!

A restorative potion that all classes can use seems like a good idea. Less class specific clutter. More tactical options. May make the game significantly easier for non-mages but then that is good for class balance.

I personally am not of the "it's too easy. Life should be harder" school, but I also think that there's something a bit hinky about mana potions and their place in the world (I even brought it up on a separate thread). One of my favorite character types is alchemist, and as an alchemist I have basically never used a mana potion. The only time I've used mana potions on a non-alchemist has been as a weird sort of liquid identify scroll for the characters that helped out the right seer.

On the flip side, it seems reasonable that the hybrid mages ought to have *something*. I know that they both *have* mana-restoring skills now, but are those skills good enough to depend on as sole mana source? Do we want to make those skills mandatory even if they are? I also note some concerns with having unified restorative potions.

- Equilibrium restoration via potions would allow an antimagic character with the right skills to basically declare themselves immune to magical attack until the potions run out. It may or may not break summoners as well.

- Paradox restoration via potions just seems bizarre

- Hate restoration via potions seems perhaps even more bizarre - and could kill the rather unique always-driving-forward playstyle incentives of the Cursed.

- I know little about Vim

I also rather like the idea of combining poison and disease resistance potions, and note that it would mean that undead starting characters and non-undead starting characters alike could be given potions that would be useful to them.

Just as an idea to throw out there - perhaps we could have potions of clarity. It would cure blindness and confusion, prevent blindness, confusion, and perhaps daze for a few turns, and also restore some mana on the side. Higher-level versions might function as full-on potions of free action along with everything else, have better durations, and restore more mana. That way, it's not that this strange, disliked, niche power type has potion sellers in every shop lining up to help out, it's that mana-wielders have found a way to get additional benefit out of potions that people are already using for other purposes.

Sirrocco wrote: One of my favorite character types is alchemist, and as an alchemist I have basically never used a mana potion. The only time I've used mana potions on a non-alchemist has been as a weird sort of liquid identify scroll for the characters that helped out the right seer.

This is slightly OT(and perhaps deserves its own thread), but - anyone else thinks it's WEIRD that Alchemists don't actually, you know, have a lot to do with potions? The're more like Artificiers - I sure don't want them to lose the golem, I love that - but perhaps they should have the the ability to make potions from gems(with better potions requiring actually usefl gems).
Should put price limitations on the potions though, so you can't make a very significant profit from turning gems into potions(gems aren't worth much as items - weird narratively but I get it, balance-wise)

possibly give them a power that allows them to infuse a gem of appropriate level into a potion to give it more swigs. Higher levels of skill allow better gems to be used (and thus higher-level potions), but price at the shop is unchanged. Of course, each potion can only be infused once.

Same tree could have a power that let them burn gems to recharge (or empower?) wands and magic items, or possibly give extra uses to a scroll. Possibly also a skill that increased the effectiveness of mana-driven items - as much as doubling mana stat for the purpose of using potions/scrolls/whatever, with 20% increments per skill point.

Base it off of generic talent points.

- Energize magic items: passive. +20% mana per level for use of magic items.
- Infuse potions: active. Enchant a potion by sacrificing a gem. Enchanted potions gain a random additional number of swigs, based on "magic item" magic level.
- Infuse scrolls: as above, but with scrolls
- Recharge: burn gems to recharge activatable magic items - giving additional casts to wands and refilling the mana pools of items with mana pools

This would also give alchemists a reason to hang onto and use the gems that they accumulate, rather than just selling most of them.

Gwai wrote:See I'm just getting the feeling right now that Grey is good at these games and doesn't realize his changes will make the game way harder for 90% of the rest of players. Grey, all your changes are always based on make the game harder harder harder harder.

Heh, is that a compliment?

It seems to me that mages had better have more ways to refresh their pool than stamina users becuase stamina users can always just hit the monster!

They already have a powerful restorative spell and natural regeneration, and quite a high pool compared with stamina.

It's not that I necessarily think the game should be harder, but that there should be less "cheap" options. In seems particularly unfair that mages have such an easy time restoring Mana when Wilders have no similar potion. The commoness of mana potions is also fairly ludicrous. I like DarkGod's solution though - having them rarer is fine, and making them provide bonuses for all (or most) classes is even better.

Combining disease and poison is a nice idea. I almost never use either myself though...

If the new potions restore whatever resource you have, what talents will now be invalidated? Personally, with these potions restoring stamina, I'll never take Second Wind again. I think this is worth a second look, Darkgod.

Susramanian wrote:If the new potions restore whatever resource you have, what talents will now be invalidated? Personally, with these potions restoring stamina, I'll never take Second Wind again. I think this is worth a second look, Darkgod.

Second Wind doesn't necessarily become useless.
Potions are going to be a limited resource anyway, and it could be wasteful to use one if you only need Stamina.
If we DO need to buff Second Wind, could make it cost no energy to activate?
Say it's a SUDDEN burst of new energy, not something that takes concentration/time like the current 'deep breath' suggests.

I think I agree that mana potions are too common, because my characters rarely ever have to buy them.* However, I think that making mana potions refresh everything is going to disbalance other characters and make willpower a lot more useless for stamina characters. Even if these new potions are rarer, unless they are super-rare (in which case we are once again discussing removing mana potions)

*shadowblades only

Zonk wrote:

Susramanian wrote:If the new potions restore whatever resource you have, what talents will now be invalidated? Personally, with these potions restoring stamina, I'll never take Second Wind again. I think this is worth a second look, Darkgod.

Second Wind doesn't necessarily become useless.
Potions are going to be a limited resource anyway, and it could be wasteful to use one if you only need Stamina.
If we DO need to buff Second Wind, could make it cost no energy to activate?
Say it's a SUDDEN burst of new energy, not something that takes concentration/time like the current 'deep breath' suggests.

Making it no energy would be good.