ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I was originally going to post this in Susramanian's thread about ever-increasing challenge, but the conversation began to drift from it while I was writing and I'd feel like a jerk derailing the topic . So, I was thinking about some solutions to solving the problem of boredom on returning through a cleared dungeon...

1] As it is now, dungeons with a shortcut back to the surface on the final level (the maze, elven ruins, any dungeon with the rod of recall)
2] Dungeons with non-persistent levels that increase in difficulty on the way back once you've killed the boss, making leaving a trial as well?
3] Dungeons that have a few extra levels after the boss' level which are markedly more difficult than the previous levels, but offer a quicker and more exciting exit?
4] Dungeons where a time limit activates after the boss is defeated. Failing to the flee the dungeon within the time limit could revive the boss and remove whatever artefact it dropped from your inventory, or it could kill you outright. Lots more monsters could spawn on the way out as well.
4a] A "soft" time limit: Once you've killed the boss, your gold ticks down until you escape!
5] Longer dungeons which have "checkpoints" every 5/10 levels or so. Once one is reached you can enter/exit the dungeon from that level from the surface.
6] Bosses that could curse you on dying, giving you a little challenge condition to leave the dungeon under. -5 levels, a constant curse of vulnerability, etc. until you leave the dungeon?
7] A boss that, when defeated on the lowest level, will continue to return and attack you as you leave, with you eventually putting it away for good on the first level. Sus is right, killing a recurring enemy is fun.

I used to wish for 1], but the rest of these put it to shame!

For 2], after killing the boss there could be an earthquake or trap or something that blocks the way back, but a new > appears where the boss died. You then have to fight your way through X new levels to get back to the surface. This is functionally the same as what you proposed, but would explain why the return trip is through unmapped levels. This could maybe be merged with 3].

I've been trying to come up with a plausible, fun implementation of number 4]. How about this: you kill the boss and a Curse of Vengeance shows up among your status effects. Elisa speaks up through the crystal, telling you something like, "Oh no, [@name]! It looks like [bossname] has stricken you with a curse of vengeance! You don't have long before it goes off. Get as far away as possible before it goes off, or [bossname] will be reborn, and you'll be served up as his first meal!" So you have to exit the dungeon before the curse goes off. The curse should have a countdown built into its display (all status effects should have this!). I guess I've sort of incorporated some of 6] into this.

I'd love to see the High Peak get 5]. That's a long haul without a town.

Number 7] could be the boss's ghost haunting you. Every turn it has a small chance to spawn near you, and you have to kill it. No experience, no loot. Once you get to the dungeon exit, the ghost appears a final time and inhabits a pile of bones, and you've got a Bill the Bone Golem (or whoever) fight on your hands. Woo!

By the way, I loved your newest ego/artifact suggestions, particularly the Wand of Purging. I want one.

Nice ideas. Here's my thoughts:

1)Yeah, I'd love that. Could also have scrolls of recall, like Angband/T2 had. Backtracking after killing a boss sucks, waste of precious time.
3)As with 1, interesting.
4)You could have the whole dungeon collapse/self-destruct instead(quake effects, being crushed by rocks..) Not a fan of losing gold or insta-death effect, though.
6)Makes sense, thematically, but not sure what the point of this is - making the road to the surface trickier/harder?
7)Umh, would the recurring boss be the same monster as the previous, or some sort of shadow version? Could be fun, though.

Great stuff. My thoughts:

1) This is effective, but adds no fun.
2,3,4,6,7) I think the best way to achieve something like this, without making the boss kill something minor, is to increase the difficulty of coming home with what you got from the boss. I imagine something like "The Staff glows in a menacing way, it's drawing the attention of every tiny creature around. You'd better get out of here fast!" and then a passage is revealed in the chamber of the boss, where you have to run the hell out of there, with a massive army running behind you. Or the earthquake mentioned before. Something EPIC. When I kill the boss I want to think "Ok, now I have to manage to get out of here alive", not "Damn, I wish I had a recall scroll... ok, where were the stairs?". I think each dungeon should have a different way out. And I think I like the idea of not being able to return to a dungeon after I got the boss, reducing scumming. This would most certainly affect the random bosses you can fight when you get back from the East, but it's as simple as to add someone telling @: "There are rumours that there's great evil hiding in the ruins of Amôn Sul/in the sunken Maze/etc".

The method of exit could be made somewhat different for each boss dungeon?
Perhaps randomly assigned when the boss is killed, from choices 1-7?

Burb Lulls wrote:I was originally going to post this in Susramanian's thread about ever-increasing challenge, but the conversation began to drift from it while I was writing and I'd feel like a jerk derailing the topic . So, I was thinking about some solutions to solving the problem of boredom on returning through a cleared dungeon...

1] As it is now, dungeons with a shortcut back to the surface on the final level (the maze, elven ruins, any dungeon with the rod of recall)
2] Dungeons with non-persistent levels that increase in difficulty on the way back once you've killed the boss, making leaving a trial as well?
3] Dungeons that have a few extra levels after the boss' level which are markedly more difficult than the previous levels, but offer a quicker and more exciting exit?
4] Dungeons where a time limit activates after the boss is defeated. Failing to the flee the dungeon within the time limit could revive the boss and remove whatever artefact it dropped from your inventory, or it could kill you outright. Lots more monsters could spawn on the way out as well.
4a] A "soft" time limit: Once you've killed the boss, your gold ticks down until you escape!
5] Longer dungeons which have "checkpoints" every 5/10 levels or so. Once one is reached you can enter/exit the dungeon from that level from the surface.
6] Bosses that could curse you on dying, giving you a little challenge condition to leave the dungeon under. -5 levels, a constant curse of vulnerability, etc. until you leave the dungeon?
7] A boss that, when defeated on the lowest level, will continue to return and attack you as you leave, with you eventually putting it away for good on the first level. Sus is right, killing a recurring enemy is fun.

When you kill a boss, you get a time limit and if you don't leave the dungeon, it collapses on you (hmm... I should stop watching action movies)
9) When you kill a boss, it resurrects (hmm... didn't that one already get implemented?)
10) When you kill a boss, the up staircase disappears and a down staircase appears... leading to a crypt with a coffin... and Dracula emerges from it and sucks your blood and you continue roaming the dungeon as a minion of evil
11) All dungeons have infinite depths, with a boss at the bottom
11b) If you kill the boss, you get a new achievement
12) All bosses get the "Hand of Doom" spell, which instantly kills your character
13) All squares in the dungeon are hidden traps dealing 10000 damage
14) When you create your character, you get a 10 turn time limit... after which you die from a congenital malformation
15) <insert more here.... I'm starting to get bored>

11) All dungeons have infinite depths, with a boss at the bottom

AHAHAHHA

I'm not sure what this topic is. Anyone care to explain?

The topic is about making the game harder... sounds like people find it too easy

Not me! I spend all of yesterday dying (but had great fun!)

But this post is more about ways to make exiting a zone after having killed the boss interresting

Question:

Final Master wrote:I'm not sure what this topic is. Anyone care to explain?

One answer:

PowerWyrm wrote: making the game harder... sounds like people find it too easy

Correct answer:

Burb Lulls wrote:So, I was thinking about some solutions to solving the problem of boredom on returning through a cleared dungeon...

Not trying to make it harder. Just trying to spice up the boring parts. The rod of recall simply cuts out the return trip, which is fine, but there's nothing wrong with trying to find ways to make a return trip more entertaining. Let's hear more ideas!

I think PowerWyrm's point is that some of the suggestions just make the game harder, not more interesting. However it should be considered that these need not be blanket ideas for all dungeons, but could be applied to individual dungeons. Having the one behaviour for everywhere would just make the behaviour dull.

I'd personally like to see changes in the monster types spawned in dungeons after the boss has been killed. For instance, Carn Dum could get infested with mountain trolls after Rantha has been killed. The Old Forest could become a den for bandits. It would represent the changes in the balance of power the player is making to the world. It would also give something different and interesting without necessarily being harder, and would give less of that feeling of "Oh, not another bloody cold drake" on the way home.

Yeah grey exactly, those ideas are not for everywhere.

I realyl like that change monster set idea ..

Ah, an even harder game. How about playing at higher difficulty? That's what it's there for. Plus you get to flash your more prestigious achievements around (eventually).

But about making dungeon crawling less trivial...

I endorse a combination of two suggestions already presented. A new variety of npcs start to show (say after 100 turns) of the boss' death. And a different route of exist upon death of the boss.

I'll give my ideas and suggestions in a bit, got some lunch to brew up for the wife.

The sandworm den/lair/whatever could have some sort of quake upon defeating the boss causing the previous 6 floors to be re-mapped..

That entire dungeon is just really, really annoying though..