ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Just an idea, coming out of the Rod/Wand thread

Assumption A rod, wand or stave is functionally identical.

Each chargeable device can hold a small number of charges (perhaps 5). This implies that these devices are rare and precious and not to be used lightly... These devices are very difficult to make and charge, as a result it takes much more energy to create an effect that an Archmage or other spellcaster could create in a blink of an eye.

So our heroine uses her rod of blasting and smites the foe... . She expends only one charge!

How does she recharge the rod? Can a rod recharge itself? Yes, is the answer and there are 3 methods...

Recharge over time

Once a charge is used up it takes a very long (1000 turns?) to recharge. It does so by lowering your HP by 1 point.
If you can cast spells then it will also grab a point out of that pool of power (recharge doubled), mana points down by 1.

Note that the Mana pool can be any source of energy. So anyone with access to an additional source of energy has a slightly increased rate of recharge.

Recharge in a shop

Our heroine rich, is not a spellcaster and is impatient with the slow method and so goes to a shop, pays a steep fee and does a recharge of the device.

Recharge as spell

Our heroine happens to be a spellcaster and so finding herself a quiet spot pours her energy into the device to reduce or complete the chargeup time.

I think they all sound too easy. Wands should be temporary magical devices, as potions and scrolls are. When the charges run out, the wand disappears. Otherwise there are too many scummy ways to get a good wand recharged and they'll seem less special.

The other question around this is how are they made?

By Alchemists of course, which suggests a small quest reward for Lost Alchemists (Free recharge) and a School of Device Construction...

I agree, use the effects, lose the item. And I prefer that there not be a distinction between rods/wands/staves. I don't now anyone that really used staves in T2, everyone used (I may get them confused here) rods to search and probably heal/haste because they recharge over time for free; and/or wands to blast stuff apart with using spells like fireflash.

I say just lump them all into one namesake (just pick one), and make them all function identically. I would also say something like 5-10 charges, varying in maximum possible charges from the material (if we are going the route of different material styled items here). The higher grade the material the higher maximum charge chance the item has. They should NOT auto recharge without a scroll/spell of Recharge (and I think it shouldn't be an instant "here's 2 more charges" probably something like a very slow metaflow) OR paying a huge sum of gold (for this game anyway) to a shop to recharge it. If you let it get to 0 charges then it goes bye bye.

my 2 cents:
i think keeping wands and rods separate is a good idea. staves obviously have a different use in te4, and the differences between wands and staves have always been somewhat semantic anyway.
wands should be used as grey said, in a somewhat disposable fashion (although i think they should be able to be recharged at the shop, and have a fairly high change of being destroyed in the process, maybe like 50%). their value should vary, but generally be on the cheaper side. depending on the type of wand, they should probably have anywhere between 3-10 charges. they should mostly have offensive and unique utility functions (lightning, dig, smoke, etc). if you see a scary bear lumbering towards your low level shadowblade pull out your wand of manathrust, zap it til its dead, and dump your now empty wand.
rods should be rarer, much more expensive, and in general, have more basic utility functions (detection, id, defensive and restorative abilities). they should recharge freely, regardless of class, but fairly slowly. their powers should be limited to the point of not obviating the skills of specific classes, but powerful enough that they would be rather desirable to those without much in the way of detection. they should also probably be heavy enough that some classes would have to think twice about stockpiling them (maybe like encumbrance 3).
they should both have failure rates, determined by the user's magic stat. 0% failure rate should be unachievable (except maybe for specific classes)...
i know that's a pretty hard-line traditionalist take on things, but i think there's a reason its worked so well in many similar games

if wands/rods are to be combined, i think they should both behave as wands are described above - in a semi-disposable fashion. (although regardless, i think the inclusion of a few rare, high-end artifact rods that recharge naturally is a good idea)...

i really like final master's idea of scrolls of recharge working slowly - it prevents casual abuse of the items.
and definitely into madmonks ideas of adding magic device abilities to the alchemist - or maybe even a new class built around the use of magic devices...

Final Master wrote:I say just lump them all into one namesake (just pick one), and make them all function identically.

Which is exactly what I was angling for, so it matters not in terms of game function whether you have a Rod or a Wand - it functions the same. The only reason to have the name separation is for game flavour. So I will term them sticks for the nonce...

Grey wrote:I think they all sound too easy. Wands should be temporary magical devices, as potions and scrolls are. When the charges run out, the wand disappears. Otherwise there are too many scummy ways to get a good wand recharged and they'll seem less special.

Yes, happy with that too, if a stick goes to zero charges it falls apart.

Final Master wrote:I would also say something like 5-10 charges, varying in maximum possible charges from the material (if we are going the route of different material styled items here). The higher grade the material the higher maximum charge chance the item has.

Yes, MAX charge should vary depending on the quality of the material used to make the device. You may pick up a Mithril Stick of Whacking and find it only has one charge, but it may be able to be charged up to say (abritrarily) 10 shots.

So that leaves charging/recharging our stick

teachu2die wrote:...although i think they should be able to be recharged at the shop, and have a fairly high change of being destroyed in the process, maybe like 50%...
...they should recharge freely, regardless of class, but fairly slowly. their powers should be limited to the point of not obviating the skills of specific classes, but powerful enough that they would be rather desirable...

So there would be a high chance of our stick disentegrating on a forced recharge (ie done in a shop or by an alchemist of Mage), but if left to recharge naturally would recharge quite happily.

I will sum up shortly to see where we are...

Take 2

Assumption A rod, wand or stave is functionally identical.


I should make it clear here that a staff mentioned here is quite distinct from the ArchMage staff. The standard staff mentioned here is only capable of casting one spell (so a staff of Identify for instance). An archmage staff has all the standard magical enhancements that we are familiar with.

Since a wand = a rod = a staff I am going to call them all sticks... Silly I know but it keeps things simple!

Each stick can hold a number of charges that is dependent on the quality of the base materials. I would suggest a max charge of 10. This implies that these devices are rare and precious and not to be used lightly... These devices are very difficult to make and charge, as a result it takes much more energy to create a stick with a spell imbued in it that an Archmage or other spellcaster could create in a blink of an eye.

If a stick is reduced to zero charge it crumbles into dust.

How is a stick recharged? Can a rod recharge itself? Yes, is the answer and there are 2 methods...

Natural recharge
I still like this method, so until someone suggests a better method...
Once a charge is used up it takes a very long (1000 turns?) to recharge. It does so by lowering your HP by 1 point.
If you can cast spells (of whatever flavour) then it will also grab a point out of that pool of power (recharge rate doubled or more), and the points form that source of energy goes down by 1.

Note that the Mana pool can be any source of energy. So anyone with access to an additional source of energy has a slightly increased rate of recharge.

Please also note that having multiple devices recharging in this manner will reduce your HPs and available mana. Due consideration should be given to this.

Due consideration should be given to upping the amount of Mana and HP that is drained- so thoughts here would be welcome!

Forced Recharge

Forced recharges are not without risk, since there is a 50% chance of the device blowing up. The base percentage is 50% with consideration given to the quality of the item (high quality sticks reduce the chance of disrupting the device) and the number of charges (more charges increase the chance of disrupting the device)

Sticks can be recharged in a shop by paying a steep fee to recharge the device
Sticks can be recharged by a spellcaster or Alchemist who pours her energy into the device to reduce or complete the chargeup time.

All feedback welcome!

I still don't like recharging, especially natural recharging. It'll mean players will be hanging on to wands with single charges in the hopes of them eventually regenerating. The HP deterrent can be gotten around, whilst it unintentionally punishes those who are using the wands purely as consumables.

Recharging at certain rare shops or with a high level magic ability sound good with the significant failure rate. I would personally say it should be always an extremely difficult feat to achieve.

Perhaps rods and wands should be more distinct? I would propose that rods are actually enchanted (one-handed?)maces. When wielded, you have a new control "Leech HP" and if you do it recharges itself slowly while reducing your max HP by 35*level. The max number of charges is the quality of the material (so a galvorn rod would have 4, for example). Wands would only be rechargeable from a 5th Meta spell.

Operation aside perhaps, I'd like to see such things....or other "Wonderous item" styled thing...be more---thematic/significant.

Have them hew heavily into Quest item territory instead of drops and random floor loot. In fact, mess with them in a Quest'ish way.

Take the monster vaults/pits for example. You could emphasize a unique one via having it a Racial/Cult Treasure where actually managing to take it could have differing consequences depending on the player's own race/class/etc. Alternatively, a sealed vault filled to the brim with traps and the like instead of monsters that needs careful navigation and or competent skills to be able to get to it. Also, ones that are Cursed in a Quest oriented fashion that would auto-equip and need to have lifted before it could be used as intended---opening up the doors for any manner of unusual positive or negative Curse effects to contend with or make use of.

Mainly, it just comes down to not settling for mere "Zappers", as is too often the case, given this is a perfect opportunity to crank up the ingame flavor and invite a greater variety of more unorthodox quests. I'd also think it best if the effects only "rhyme" with already existing spells and such as opposed to mirror them outright.

im ok w/ the above, but i think the natural recharge should be nixed, except in the case of artifact rods, which should recharge freely. and wands should not be destroyed when they reach zero charges.

A big question has been lingering in my mind sense this has been brought up; especially with the talk of a natural recharge (which I still don't like except for artifact activations like it is now) and that is: Is there a per use cooldown for using sticks? Can we sit there for four turns in a row using our stick of fireshock or is there going to be something like a 10 turn cooldown before we can use the effect again?

So no one likes a natural re-charge... If you have a specific reason can you let me know? I am wondering why everyone is against it - please don't get me wrong, I am just curious!

Also on the subject of cooldowns - I had not thought about it but assumed that there would be no cooldown period which makes it a valuable resource!

Any more thoughts?

I guess the problem with natural recharge is that there's no penalty for wasting time, so -- even in a dungeon -- you can just sit around for ages until your rod is at full mana.

Maybe if they drained xp while recharging?

regarding recharging: there are certain attacks, effects, and utilities that are kind of broken if they can be cast infinitely, even with lengthy recharge times - remember, you have to assume, people will rest at the end or beginning of a dungeon level to recharge their equipment. additonally, the -1 hp (i assume this is meant to be a permanent loss from your total hp) seems so hazardous as to make the recharge feature useless - in fact, so hazardous as to make people fear even having a wand/rod in their pack accidentally.
ultimately, i just think it makes more sense to keep the abilities of multiple successive uses (wands) and single-use with recharge (rods) separate. it allows one to more precisely control the means by which certain abilities are available to certain classes. it also further differentiates abilities the wands/rods from the effects of scrolls and potions. a wand of 'detect monster' would function essentially identically to a small stack of 'enemy detection' scrolls, so there would be no real need to include it in the game. but a rod of 'detect monster' would have a verrrry different, and much more interesting, effect on gameplay.
i don't think there should be any cooldown time for wands - you should be able to use them with abandon, in rapid fire succession. i think rods should have a single use, with a somewhat lengthy recharge time (depending on the effect of the rod) - which functions as a cooldown, essentially, yes.