ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

just idly looking about i caught what might very well be a major fluff/gameplay disargeement

Alchemists are unable to join Zigur and that they don't actually use mana as such but gain all their powers from the Elements, specicifly through use of gems ... which does feel like something that Zigur could accept (since its not 'unnatural')

Nah, the "mainstream" of humanity / halflingdom accept Alchemists.

Zigur is not mainstream. They are radicals.

The lorefail regarding Zigur and Alchemy is that a Zigur follower can still benefit from Alchemical potions, when really he should refuse to help any Alchemist.

Doctornull wrote:The lorefail regarding Zigur and Alchemy is that a Zigur follower can still benefit from Alchemical potions, when really he should refuse to help any Alchemist.

He should, but won't - and that's not "lorefail", just the Maj'Eyal equivalent of our "cognitive dissonance" - like radical islamists who hate anything Western-y, but use cellphones and such nonetheless

It would be neat if Zigur-followers had access to a different set of "potions" and had the regular potions locked. Maybe have a completely different way of getting them instead of gathering ingredients.

Pyris311 wrote:It would be neat if Zigur-followers had access to a different set of "potions" and had the regular potions locked. Maybe have a completely different way of getting them instead of gathering ingredients.

Alternatively, just add in some lore that the brotherhood is coming under fire from Zigur for their "unnatural" potions and that they demand their new entrant this year not use any magic in making their potions so that the Ziguranth go bug someone else?

No.

The alchemists will never do this, it legitimizes the position of the terrorists. (zigurists.)

There can be NO negotiation with terrorists.

The endgame (post-master) is all a zigur based lorefail. Help the town full of wizards? Why not. Accept aid from a wizard to go back west? No prob. Accept aid straight from Angolwen to get back? Why not.

I'm not sure I'd call them "terrorists," exactly. Government patrols don't try to hunt them down. They're more like a lynch mob. I also don't see why you assume that the Brotherhood of Alchemists are so likely to stick to their guns. Alchemists in general seem to be pretty reluctant to be associated with magic (which makes me think the Brotherhood should use a term other than "potion" for the rewards).

Anyway, I like the "alternate reward" idea. Maybe a reward for killing any alchemist you haven't already helped? The different towns could react to this in different ways - the Elvala guards turn hostile, Last Hope fines you and Derth is basically indifferent.

Parcae2 wrote:(which makes me think the Brotherhood should use a term other than "potion" for the rewards).

Why? The very thing used to obtain antimagic powers (The wyrm extract) is referred to as a potion.

exarion wrote:Alternatively, just add in some lore that the brotherhood is coming under fire from Zigur for their "unnatural" potions and that they demand their new entrant this year not use any magic in making their potions so that the Ziguranth go bug someone else?

If an Alchemist comes under fire from Zigur, the Alchemist will be released only when medium-rare.

Zigur does not condone alchemy.

Mainstream normal people -- none of whom have a speaking role in the game -- generally feel okay about Alchemy but not okay about Archmagi.

The assumption that potions are magical is mostly modern perception form games and media. from a historical perspective most teas would be potions, as would asprin and water. of course anyone employing knowledge that isn't clearly understood can be suspected of using magic, but the term potion does not imply magic. only a consumeable liquid intended to convey an effect. whether laxative, headache cure, immortality or lichedom.

So whilst zigur would frown on (read BURN!) any alchemsits imbuing magic into their potions, just makign potions is not a crime agianst nature, although an act that deserves close watching. this is supported by the lore piece "my salvation" or whatnot, where an alchemist is rescued from the pyre by a zigur follower.

Replace "potion" with "tincture" and it sounds more natural :)

Yeah, while travelling alchemists throwing magic bombs at all that moves clearly contradict Zigurant law, "The story of my salvation" suggests that making potions, while not rewarded, is not viewed as a serious crime. Just like wielding arcane sword, I think; not acceptable for a Zigurant, but they won't hunt you for it.

"The Story of my Salvation" is merely a propaganda piece written by an alchemist with severe Stockholm syndrome while at knife point. It was then passed around to make the Zigur seem harsh but reasonable, which they are far from. They just tried to kill me when all I was doing was wielding two one-handed axes. I wasn't even casting spells!

Elkan wrote:The assumption that potions are magical is mostly modern perception form games and media.

Including this game, since potions are only made by Alchemists and all Alchemists are mages.

There's really no way around that.

Elkan wrote:So whilst zigur would frown on (read BURN!) any alchemsits imbuing magic into their potions, just makign potions is not a crime agianst nature, although an act that deserves close watching. this is supported by the lore piece "my salvation" or whatnot, where an alchemist is rescued from the pyre by a zigur follower.

Notice how the Alchemist is "rescued" but never allowed to practice Alchemy again?

Yeah.

The moral of that story is: Zigur hates Alchemy and they will rile up a mob to burn you alive.

Zigur followers should not gain any benefits from Alchemist potions, their anti-magical bodies rejecting the magical augmentation.