tiger_eye wrote:I proposed a different save system/playing mode a couple years ago:
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26713
Parts of the game has changed a fair amount since then, so more consideration and brainstorming could be appropriate.
Woo very long post about the subject.
I recently got a character deleted because of the current save system. A bug corrupted my single and only save and blahm character to trash. That's rather irritating.
Honestly I did knew already Tome but had forgot it, which version it was I can't remember, but when I saw The Tales of Maj'Eyal without any Tome mention I believed it was a new game and on Mac so tried it.
If first steps are half interesting as the game progress it becomes a lot more interesting. Despite all the flaws or design choice I don't like much or some not fully pro elements, the game still does impress me a lot, overall with about 30 hours put in few days in the game it's one of the very best indie RPG I ever played (but it's not a good Roguelike, yeah I don't like much Roguelike even if few did impress me a lot).
I can see easily in fights and skills design the influences of games like DAO/Diablo 2/Torchlight in that Tome4. And it's definitely good points well transposed into a turn based system. The work on lore, quests, progression and events is quite great I would only suggest study Realmz scenario about events management and sure quests could be even better.
But the awful high difficulty (making too many classes choices pointless) and the permadeath are just totally out of subject and not matching Tome4.
Save is a very complicated matter, myself I just kill Tome4 and try save manually when I want to. It doesn't solve cases of corrupted saves and unexpected instant death. I won't start make backup of file manually it's too tedious.
The various save management I could see (and also by reading the thread you quoted) :
- Forced unique save, permadeath (classical Roguelike and current game option).
- Forced unique save, resurrect limited (current game option but it doesn't seem the game design play around this much, I just saw one item adding one resurrect).
- Forced unique save, resurrect unlimited (current game option if you pay a "gift").
- Forced unique save, permapenalty at each death (to simplify it's the option you suggested, but it's been seen before like xp and/or gold lost in many MMORPG but also Diablo 2, some items lost in some MMORPG, definitive lost of one constitution point for a resurrected character in fist versions of Baldur's Gate, and more).
- Forced unique save and resurrect but also count the number of death of the character and shows it to the player to try setup some penalty on death without weaken the character (Torchlight 1 did use that I don't remember in TL2).
- Manual saves and reload (classical for PC RPG).
- Saves location checkpoints and reload, this could (pinpointed console stuff by some players, I don't agree but this is still a problem)
- Allow saves only in outdoor not in dungeons (many JRPG used that but it makes sense only with games regenerating the dungeon and Tom4 doesn't work like that).
- Autosave at entrance of a level and allow restart at this point with everything as it was at the entrance of the level (Torchlight 1&2 use that but doesn't regenerate the level making it just a resurrect option).
- Divide the game in chapters and provide a save/reload at beginning of each chapter (suggested in the other thread).
- Character level progression saves checkpoints and reload (suggested in the other thread).
- Sell the DLC resurrect your character (lol I'd hate it and would try avoid start play such game but I wonder if the resurrect would be 10 cents and you bought them by 20/50, lol I'm evil).
- Allows a character to rescue another character (It's been seen in some RPG with a roster of characters so a player can rescue a character with another character, or in multiple MMORPG a player rescuing another player but it's a feature that's not working well because players are in hurry and don't have the time to rescue or to wait be rescued).
There's certainly more possibilities.
Many points are linked to the save system:
- Permadeath involves replay 50 time more the game and it works because of a very high random diversity but not in Tome4 which doesn't match at all this aspect, there's a good random but not enough highly diversified as are the best Roguelike.
- Permadeath works only with a very high random diversity meaning that lore elements and stories elements and NPC and more don't match at all that sort of design and become rather boring stuff the 5th or 10th replay.
- Permadeath involves cheating a lot through tedious manipulations.
- Corrupted unique save is game over.
- Resurrect doesn't give to the player a chance to learn how manage a fight by restarting it from the beginning.
- Resurrect gives a tool to the player to manage a blocking point for him to make it easier and not blocking.
- Limited number of resurrect will be like permadeath for newbies.
- Unlimited resurrect or saves involves temptation of abusing.
- Unlimited resurrect or saves involves lowdown the intensity, the tension and the caution/concentration level for most players and even can remove it entirely for some players.
- No reload means not tool for the players to compensate a bad game design or a bug, when a rule is unclear or a choice abstract an incomprehensible or a game design is awful and unfair for the player.
- Cumulation of save files becomes a rather tedious detail as the game progress.
- Manual saves can make saving an obsession and a can burden the play by pushing saving every seconds. That's even more true when the game has some difficulty for the player, and any good game needs have a certain difficulty level for the player point of view.
- Autosave before critical parts are hardly unnoticed by the player and destroy the surprise element even if it can be a trick to increase the tension.
- Saves checkpoints is pinpointed as console stuff by some players (I don't agree but well it is).
- Saves checkpoints can easily generate tedious run back to sort of boring manual saves.
- Save checkpoints relies on designers to design well the save checkpoints, both not too often and not too few generating a possible blocking point. That's an element difficult to manage when the game is trying to have a significant level of random.
- In game resurrect system generally ends in death character penalty meaning harder play for weaker players and more grinding to compensate, something not compatible with Tome4 without real grinding possibilities (good point for me) despite perhaps through the random outdoor encounters.
So what option? I don't have the answer but for me Tome4 is clearly not compatible with a pure permadeath classical Roguelike approach.
I'd say that perhaps:
- The players could have the option to resurrect a character with another character.
- Also resurrect limited/unlimited could be an option but not the only one.
- At least another option should be restart from the beginning of the area with reload of an autosave at beginning of any area. And a new option, restart the beginning of the area should be given (to avoid have it only by character death).
- And to avoid corrupted saves problem perhaps the game could backup a character at each level up or every two level up, or every xxx turns/actions. And allow reload a previous autosave.