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Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:39 am
by Gamer-man
"Why can't I play a Mage?
Some classes and races have to be unlocked before you can play them. This keeps the game simple at first, and reveals greater complexity later, when you've mastered the basics."

The idea here to keep the new players from getting confused, screwing up, and blaming the game; however, do we really have the best classes unlocked from the start to do this? I am thinking not, and explain why herein.

Tier 0 Classes:
Bulwark and Barbarian are great starting classes, as they can resort to bumping into enemies until they die against everything but bosses, and rarely get into a difficult situation. I don't think anyone would suggest these are not good beginner classes.

Archer:
Once upon a time, these classes were for constant ranged damage, now they are more like the rest of the ranged classes, reliant on cooldowns, but their cooldowns have been stacked into one number, ammo, rather than several (they do have several normal cooldowns as well, but these are of lesser importance). Like other ranged classes, Archers play by the simple rule of stay out of melee, hit them when they can't hit you. However, relatively low hitpoints can leave ranged vs ranged tactics elusive, and their disengagement is cumbersome. While this might have once been the best intro to ranged combat, i question if it is anymore. However, i certainly don't think it is much more difficult than other ranged classes and their starting life is certainly more forgiving than other ranged classes, and such it probably should be left unlocked from the start.

Arcane Blade:
Why this is a beginner friendly class i will never know. Even mirthless seems confused as how to make them work well. You have Ivory tower traps of getting spells and not maxing them, a confusing balance of having to melee some of the time and stay ranged some of the time, a resource that ties up an infusion slot, and a difficult balance in specializing vs branching in both stats and skills. Nothing about this class is straight forward, and this class is not suitable for beginners at all.

Rogue:
Melee glass cannons are rather difficult to play, but not that difficult conceptually. In theory, rogues should be great vs mages as they gap close and instantly burst down, but in practice, this is harder to pull off than it sounds. Their natural affinity for double daggers also makes them more luck dependant, which can be a good or bad thing for beginners, but at least frees up generic points. Not a great beginner class but probably a reasonable option.

Shadowblade:
You'd think merging the arcane blade (difficult) with the rogue (somewhat difficult) would make this class very difficult, but here magic usage is more straightforward than with the arcane blade, and invisibility is easier to use than stealth as a gap closer, so i don't think they are any harder than rogue, despite sharing some of the problems of both rogues and arcane blades.

Alchemist:
I've heard it 1000x, this is the easiest class to play, however I've only ever heard this from players who are clearing the east with it. For a beginner who is unlikely to make it to the east, this class does not seem easy at all, especially with the advice given by others. Your most powerful ability (golem) also scales worst, your bombs need aoe boosts as an artificial range booster, which then also requires investment into immunity from self. needing these things makes other choices ivory tower choices (looks good/cool but are rookie traps). Your reliance is on avoiding combat early so the golem can do its work in peace, not exactly something most new players are going to be inclined to do naturally. Controlling the golem is not straight forward as this causes your alchemist to attempt suicide faster than most escorts, thus requires lots of practice (this may be out of date). All in all, even beyond the people who attempt to pair this with shalore for a terrible beginner class, this is perhaps the worst instinct to go to as a beginner except maybe arcane blade. And as it is advertised as the only noob friendly mage, this just compounds the problem.

Tier 1 unlocks: (Unlocks you expect to get before tier 2 dungeons)
Summoner:
very straight forward in skills, stats, how to play, and acts as a caster with normal Life per Level. This is probably the best introduction to caster characters, certainly more noob friendly than the alchemist and arcane blade, probably also more user friendly than the rogue or shadowblade.

Cursed:
I'm not sure what my opinion is on this for beginners. My first successful cursed was rampager which requires foreknowledge, but most of my failures were in B38, where cursed were terrible at everything. I don't think they are clear to play for beginners, but i don't know for sure.

Archmage:
The controversial one, the one that DG even has to justify to others in his FAQ. Archmages gameplay is pretty straight forward. You blast things from range with super high damage attacks, and then you back away when cooldowns are down, and blast away again. If the enemy closes the gap, you use one of your many escapes to reset the fight. Statwise, they are easy and logical to build, just lots and lots of magic, with willpower and constitution taking a back seat. Their power level certainly isn't what is throwing people off, as they tied for most b43 winners. They are also easily the most popular class, so it isn't because they are a class that is "not for everyone". For complexity sake, archmages have many many options, not including the 4 trees they have locked, they easily have the most options of any class, but they lack clearly bad options of others, so that isn't a huge problem for a beginner, and beginners not being able to play the class DG has put by far the most work into, is alone enough to override that concern. Compaired to archer's, their limiter on attacks is more straight forward, and their disengage is much much more useful. Compaired to arcaneblades, their role is clear. I don't understand how they are harder as a class to understand than any class other than berzerker and barbarian, and maybe summoner, and thus think they should be an auto unlock. Locking archmages seems to cause problems, and not fix anything, and seems to be based on a preconcieved notion of difficulty based more on the mage stereotype (one that mage players may wish to believe) than any reality.

I think alchemist should be locked (perhaps unlocked at first successful potion made or something) moving archmage to default, and arcane blade be locked in favour of starting the much more straight forward summoner unlocked. This is both more logical traditionally and mechanically, and if number of options on archmage turns out to actually be a problem, just lock some more of those with some easy unlock options (it isn't like you couldn't just start half of abilities locked and still have the mage appear to have the most work put into it of all the classes)

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:54 am
by HousePet
The Archmage requiring unlock seems more of a flavour thing.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:03 am
by Grey
Yeah, it's more of a flavour thing. Mages are hidden in the game, you have to find them to play them. The quest to unlock them teaches a small but important bit of information about power sources on items, whilst also being fairly easy.

I personally dislike the whole "beginners can't handle this" approach. Arcane Blades are the class that hooked me the most when I started playing. I loved the fact that I had to make difficult choices in character building. It's not idiot-friendly, but it does do a good job of grabbing in those that like to obsess over details (like me). Why hide the meat of the game from those who may turn out to be the most dedicated players?

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:08 am
by Cinghiale
I think if a person dies more than 10 times in an hour it should unlock Yeek Solipsist with the message "We can't watch this anymore, it's too horrible! Here, take this guy."

Lock more! (Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?)

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:41 am
by atan59
If anything could be changed, I'd say lock more, not less. Personally, my main hook on the game is to unlock classes, races, etc... I remember the first time I played, the first couple of unlocks that happened unexpectedly in the middle of game play - that was great!

Definitely don't unlock Archmages, whose unlock makes a lot of sense story-wise, but maybe lock Arcane Blades, Shadowblades and Alchemists, providing new players with even more opportunities to discover classes in-game. The unlock for Alchemists could happen the first time you're thrown a bomb at, whereas for Arcane blades, a bit more lore would be needed - in fact I'm not aware of any Arcane-blade-specific lore in-game, so that would be a great opportunity to create it and make their place in the world more consistent. Shadowblades, on the other hand, might require a rogue character to unlock in a similar way to how they can learn about poison in-game.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:06 am
by Gamer-man
I think the FAQ should be updated to reflect the real reason mages are not unlocked from the start, if it isn't for "complexity" reasons.

I like unlocks, and may even agree that locking more of the game might be a good thing, but then you get to difficulty where someone is really into the idea of one of the classes, and really wants to play it but can't. So maybe instead, lock Arcane Blade, Shadow Blade, and Alchemist, but give all online users one free unlock of their choice. So if you really love the concept of a class, you can use that class to unlock everything else, rather than a class you don't like as much to unlock the class you really wanted to play. This cleans up the "why arn't mages unlocked from the start" issue, fixes issues like for me (paradox mage) and my brother (solipsist) who joined because we liked one class's concept, and allows more content to be locked while being comfortable that players still have enough of a choice. It also promotes people to register online, which gets them more involved. And on the topic of more locked content, i'd like to see a locked branch for more classes, instead of 4 locked mage branches, an out of place locked poison branch, and then nothing for anyone else.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:34 pm
by Klapaucius
I think it's pretty clear that arcane blade needs to be unlocked by killing stuff with a sword while playing an archmage

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:55 pm
by SageAcrin
I like Arcane Blade starting unlocked as the token one insane class that you start with, and as a token remotely traditional caster.

Alchemist makes a great beginner class, too, so I dunno there, either...and it makes a good token Mage class, since I agree with the flavor point on Archmage.

Shadowblade being locked wouldn't be horribly unreasonable, though-it's pretty complex and unusual. But, considering the game's out of beta, locking base unlocked classes now and forcing a few thousand players to unlock them would just be weird. >_>

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:14 pm
by Frumple
Someone should obviously make an addon that starts with everything locked. Race, class, campaign, difficulty, all of it, with unlock conditions added for things that don't have them. Your initial choice would consist entirely of a "Play" button, which selects a combination almost completely at random, excepting easier mode not being available. After that initial start, you would be unable to play anything but that combination until you manually unlocked options. Stuck with insane yeek cursed in the ID? Too damn bad.

This would allow the locked content fetishists to have their jollies and stop bothering those of us not so enthused about this unlocking BS.

Simple addon that unlocks everything would be nice, too. S'pretty trivial to do by hand but it'd probably be nice to have a little addon thing so those of us not quite so pleased by locked core content can express our distaste in a more easily trackable method.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:15 am
by greycat
Guys, if you think the FAQ should be updated, then update it. It's not "DG's FAQ" in any sense. I wrote it (most of it during the teen betas, ~2 years ago, but I made some updates during the RCs). It's on a wiki that DarkGod set up for us, but he rarely touches it at all, unless we ask him to -- and he almost never edits the content.

So, don't treat it like it's read-only. It's ours, and it can be whatever we decide.

(I just edited it again, to add the bit about mages being in hiding.)

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:47 am
by Gamer-man
i don't care one way or another if we have as much locked as we have now, or more, or less. I was just suggesting that if we had more locked, but gave everyone a free unlock, i'd balance out to how it is now, but the players would have more choice and the people who complain that mages are locked wouldn't have a reason to complain anymore. i think this is a good solution regardless if half of the content is locked, or 99% of it is locked.

As for what is locked at the beginning, i was saying that the choices of mage = locked, arcane blade = unlocked, alchemist = unlocked, summoner = locked is rather arbitrary. And for story purposes, i just have no idea what the story is anymore. Apparently Archmages have to hide because they are hunted, but alchemists, arcane blades, and shadow blades do not. Alchemists, who channel mana are even very visible members of society, no idea if the blades have to hide or not. And then vim and paradox users are also hunted for related but non identical reasons, vim users of which do have to hide, but it isn't clear where..... it is sorta just a mess. Maybe it is too late to change things, but i don't think it is ideal as it is.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:16 am
by Mewtarthio
Gamer-man wrote:And for story purposes, i just have no idea what the story is anymore. Apparently Archmages have to hide because they are hunted, but alchemists, arcane blades, and shadow blades do not. Alchemists, who channel mana are even very visible members of society, no idea if the blades have to hide or not. And then vim and paradox users are also hunted for related but non identical reasons, vim users of which do have to hide, but it isn't clear where..... it is sorta just a mess. Maybe it is too late to change things, but i don't think it is ideal as it is.
These all get addressed. Arcane and Shadowblades have "innate" magical gifts; regardless of how persecuted they are, they'll still keep popping up through random quirks of genetics. The "random quirk of genetics" thing also makes it a bit harder to paint them as "evil" since they don't go around looking for unnatural powers. Alchemist magic is superficially different enough from "perverse arcane magic" that nobody really cares about them--Ultimately, they look more like regular folks wielding magical items, and they're pretty handy to have around, so everyone lets it slide (what, you expected consistency from prejudiced fanatics?). That's not to say these people are totally free from prejudice (see "The Story of My Salvation"); they're just common enough that they aren't really "secret."

As for the other power sources (who are all persecuted for the same reason, really): Chronomancers live in Point Zero, outside the regular time stream, so they're pretty safe. Corruptors form their own self-sufficient sects hidden away from society; the Rhaloren also keep their practices alive. Celestials are almost always found in the Far East, where magic is practiced openly.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:42 am
by Grey
It's high magic, the ripping apart of elemental forces with your bare will, that is so disdained. Alchemists and Arcane Blades use tools and weaker magic that is more socially acceptable (though still against the more extremes of opinions like the Ziguranth). However there are still casters about, and many people just choose to not ask probing questions.

But any city of mages is an easy target, and the formal training of archmages would be considered outrage amongst the normal people. Mages must hide, and when they go into town they keep their activities quiet. Elvala of course being the one exception, but that is protected by the Shaloren armies.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:40 am
by HousePet
And I expect the Shaloren can make their city disappear again, should anyone try to attack them.

I kind of like unlocks. It makes it feel like you got somewhere, even when you died before level 20. It also gives a bit of structure to the metagame.
The harder unlocks, I don't like. Having to look at guides and spoilers to unlock something ruins it completely.
If the unlock condition is obscure, add in multiple obscure places where it could happen. The Mindslayer unlock is too obscure. Its hard enough to get the Yeek unlock.
Marauder I haven't got cos I suck at rogues. :lol:

Alchemist could be unlocked with something as simple as completing one potion.

Re: Time to Start Archmage Unlocked?

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:57 am
by supermini
Gamer-man wrote:i don't care one way or another if we have as much locked as we have now, or more, or less. I was just suggesting that if we had more locked, but gave everyone a free unlock, i'd balance out to how it is now, but the players would have more choice and the people who complain that mages are locked wouldn't have a reason to complain anymore.
People who complain mages are locked will always find a reason to complain.

You can (and probably will) unlocked them in the first hour of playing. I don't see the problem.