ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Is it just me or are undeads the worst player race in the game? I've been trying out all the different races and the undead stand out as the obvious inferior race.
Let me dissect their race and see if you guys agree / disagree with me.

First of all, their advantages. (and my thoughts)

Ghoul: great poison resistance (average)
bleeding immunity (average)
stun resistance (good)
fear immunity ( average)
4 more hp per level than humans which translates to 200 hp by lvl 50
a few extra stats (noticeable early game, neglegible over the course of the game imo)
Ghoul talent tree (good)

Skeleton is the same except: Poison immunity (average)
no stun resistance
no breathing (average)
2 more hp per lvl
Skeleton talent tree (very good)

Overall, I find the advantages alright, but nothing to write home about. The stat bonuses aren't any better than the other non-cornac races. The immunities are not that great because poison / bleeding / fear are some of the lesser lethal status affects, and it doesn't even include other spells that do damage over time like fire. The extra hp isn't noticeable enough early game when u most needed them, and later on you'll have tons of hp anyway, so the extra hp (especially when compared to other races who also get more hp) is a very small advantage. The special talent trees, overall, are good, especially for skeleton, but I find them only on par, if not inferior, to certain very good racial trees like the shalore tree (with an awesome 10% magical crit, and global speed boost) or the dwarven tree (plenty of resistances to boost survival and wall walk).

And don't forget when you divert points from other generic trees into racial talent trees, you are also losing out on using potentially very useful generic trees (hence the strength of Cornac, being more adaptable than any other races).


Now the minuses:
- No access to infusions AT ALL, so no regeneration, no healing, etc (Massive disadvantage). This imo is a killer, because regeneration / healing runes greatly enhance any character's survival, and not being able to regenerate make fighting prolonged boss fights or any fights very very dangerous. This is NOT negated by having shields, because u can just as easily have shields for other non-undead races to go with the regeneration / healing.

- No wild infusion is also pretty big, because not only does it removes just about any type of status affect (if not all of them), it also gives u a nice 20% or so damage reduction for a few turns, very noticeable when fighting bosses. This when used in combo with regeneration makes a lot of the boss a lot easier.

- Now, these disadvantages can be partially overcome by going into undead's racial tree, but once again, all these points can just as easily be spent on other generic talent trees to boost survival / damage.

- 40% extra exp needed per level to advance (big downside), Once again, a massive exp penalty, which means undead will be gaining levels slower than every other race, and is at a huge disadvantage when compared to your standard humans. This is especially noticeable in the current version with no respawn of item / creatures, so you are forced to move on, and if you got shafted by item generation, it becomes all the more painful to play them.

- 20% slower global speed for ghouls. Wow, 20% slower GLOBAL speed? Considering how hard it is to boost global speed by even a small amount, and how useful global speed is in this game (or any other game really, speed kills), I think this speaks for itself.


So there you have it. I think the undead probably need further boosts to stay in competition with the other races. Please feel free to share your thoughts on this matter!

No. The new skeleton tree imo is very strong. And in my next game I am hpoing to spend the full 20 generic points there.

Bone armour isa full blown shield rune, admittedly takes a turn vs normal shielding which is instant. Reassemble is a full healing infusion. So that is 2 category points. If you get shield runes with short enough cooldowns you can almost be shielded the whole time.

Curses and diseases will last so much shorter. +10 str and dex ie. +20 attribute points is awesome especially for arcane blades temporal wardens ans archers.

Water breathing makes the home available earlier and is useful late game too.

Ghouls... +200 hp is the same as 5 generic points in health, but the speed loss is nasty. I've tried a ghoul mage which wasn't too bad, but it was probably not really because its a ghoul but because it was a mage.

Canderel wrote:No. The new skeleton tree imo is very strong. And in my next game I am hpoing to spend the full 20 generic points there.

Bone armour isa full blown shield rune, admittedly takes a turn vs normal shielding which is instant. Reassemble is a full healing infusion. So that is 2 category points. If you get shield runes with short enough cooldowns you can almost be shielded the whole time.

Curses and diseases will last so much shorter. +10 str and dex ie. +20 attribute points is awesome especially for arcane blades temporal wardens ans archers.

Water breathing makes the home available earlier and is useful late game too.

Ghouls... +200 hp is the same as 5 generic points in health, but the speed loss is nasty. I've tried a ghoul mage which wasn't too bad, but it was probably not really because its a ghoul but because it was a mage.

I agree that the skeleton tree is very good, like I stated in my original post. But that's the thing though, if you spent 20 points into it, it better be good. Don't forget, that 20 points can be spent else where with another race on some very good generic talents or racial talents of their own. 20 generic points is a TON of points to be given up. For example, if I play a shaloren mage, I can invest 5 points in the 10% magical crit, 10 points in heal / regen, so I can 2 regens and 2 heals (along with runes) for massive survival, and the last 5 points in timeless which more or less equals the skeleton racial tree.

What I'm saying is, with undead you more or less have to dive deep into your racial tree for better survival, since you don't infusions to cover them, which means your builds with any class will likely be less diverse, pretty much ignoring your generic talents if you want to be decent at staying alive.

If you're talking about ghouls... yep, the lower speed and experience are a bit too penalizing regarding other races.
Concerning skeletons... they are balanced and fun that way in my opinion.

Actually I take it back... the xp penalty on ghouls isn't as high as I remembered it. The 20% speed penalty is nasty but not overwhelming, they maight make it with just a small tinkering on the racials.

The lack of infusions makes for very interesting play though. It's fun to play as skeletons because it teaches you to rely heavily on shield runes. Not having regen and healing infusions can be painful, but the new tactics you learn are invaluable. And the benefits from the skeleton tree in particular are well worth it. No other generic trees are worth my points as much as the Skelly one.

Ghouls are another class of toughness, but getting Con to ridiculous heights early game can be fun. The speed penalty can be negated by a few things, and it at least means your cooldowns come off a little faster. Still, they're a challenge, but it's nice to have challenges.

The xp penalty is seriously not a drag. Only Cornacs and yeeks are significantly faster. There's plenty of xp to be had in the game.

I believe DG is still planning to add other types of inscriptions to the game (Taints and Psionic Foci) so eventually the no infusions thing won't be such a huge draw back.

Grey wrote:The lack of infusions makes for very interesting play though. It's fun to play as skeletons because it teaches you to rely heavily on shield runes.

Another serious problem worth mentioning is the vulnerability to silence and confusion (mostly a mid-game issue) for caster classes. Without the appropriate wild infusion, there is no way for an undead to clear these debuffs. I'm currently running a skelly paradox mage, and whenever I get silenced all three pages of abilities go grey and I have to completely stop fighting for several turns.

Another, somewhat surprising, annoyance is how difficult it is to light the dungeon without a sun infusion (and without a certain artifact). A lot of mobs can attack from outside light range, and it's gets to be very tedious shooting blindly into the dark at 7-10 range over and over with no feedback on whether the target it dead, immune, etc. How about an illumination rune?

As my rogue was stuck in ruined dungen due to a bug and must be killed (*sob* I hate to do it) I started a new char just for fun.
I remembered this thread so I started a skeleton and decided he should be archer.

Compared to a hobbit thief he is a invulnerable killing machine!!
Never ever in my games as rogue I have felt such an ease playing this game.
None what so ever.

Do I miss regeneration and healing?
Nope. So far I have never been below 50% of my hp.
Bone Armour together with a kick ass bow and skills is all that is needed.
It is almost a joke.

Bone Armour + arrows killes EVERYTHING before the armour is gone.
Pinning, slowing, blinding, a few steady shots in between and they just die.
I do not even load with special arrows.
I also have one extra room for a rune. The talent trees I can open seem crappy but as I do not need more runes, why should I use a slot?
Btw, are there new talent slots to get somehow in this game?

If there are several monsters, alright, I must perhaps use the shielding infusions also (I have 2).
In Daikara 1, I also had to teleport one time. *gasp*
It was this new(?) giant place with a few one room houses coupled with a large building full of giants.
There, and there only, I had to escape.

So far, as I never guessed he would survive, I almost only put points in DEX and CON.
Might be in trouble when I meet spellcasters with my low Willpower.

It's true, skeletons make great archers, especially since it seems the bone shield skill was boosted. Try a Ghoul.

shooth wrote:It's true, skeletons make great archers, especially since it seems the bone shield skill was boosted.

I met three enemies in an encounter.
1) Bone Shield
2) *fire away* happy as ever before
3) *POFF* Some spell(s) and my armour was dust.
4) Shielding rune
5) *POFF* Shield gone (life at 120)
6) Teleport (one enemy in sight)
7) Cripling Shot (hit to 34hp)
8 ) Steady Shot (KILL)
9-11) Put on regeneration stuff
12 Pray (behind my computer)
13 Pray
14 Pray
15 Pray
16 Shield
17
18
19
20
21
22 R (nothing happens)
Over and kill the other two.

Very close call.
No idea what took away my Bone Shield

Tom

There are a lot of NPCs that will turn off your buffs from a distance.

It is a real pain and as a result of this I routinely expect it and therefore try to build out any reliance on these buffs. Keep watching your buffs as you battle and watch them wink out. Then, as you discovered, endure the cooldown before you turn them on again, only for them to be turned off again...

Skeleton Archers rock! I had early winners with these!

Currently skeletons make the best archmages and arcane blade thanks to the aegis tree. Get re-assemble to level 5 and you got a 550 healing that also gives you a 250+ shield every time you use it. Combine that with 2 shield runes, bome armor, and the aegis tree's healing. You can easily have skeleton absorb 1500+ damage before their skills run out.