ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

The problems with playing rogues seem to stem from the skill selection and requirement for stat splitting.

As a comparison lets use Berserkers, a popular and very powerful class. Berserkers get 2 stuns, rogues get 2 stuns. Berserkers can stat largely str/con with some dex and do great. Rogues that want to use their 2 stuns need to stat cun/dex with some con. Also there are several other skills requiring dex. They need really high cun for their daggers to deal good damage, but then it seems sort of counterproductive that their stun skills rely on dex for their effect rates. What does this leave in the rogue to berserker comparison? Berserkers have high str which allows them to wear massive armor and rogues are in leather both to use stealth and because they don't have an investment in str.

Ok so lets talk about stealth. Obviously compared to skills like unstoppable stealth falls a little short. Stealth is usually easily broken until about level 8-10. It requires investments in pretty much everything in the tree to work well. One complaint about stealth, which might seem minor, is that practically everything breaks it. Infusions most notably break stealth until investment into the talent. Traps break stealth as well. Seems kind of silly to have to lay a trap then hide in plain sight or get mobbed immediately. With phase door and hide in plain sight stealth becomes more powerful since you can blink away and hide for a very effective method of getting away from most combat. This is of course if you manage to live a few rounds with hardly any armor and is a strategy better utilized by shadowblade.

Rogues can hit very hard with dual wield especially if you get two weapons that each increase both weapons damage. Berserkers can hit as hard or harder with a single two handed weapon that does 3 times as much base damage. Both classes get extra damage to stunned targets.

Rogues have traps. Now, traps are very powerful albeit annoying to use. They require a low skill investment. You only need to get Trap Mastery to 5, the other skills in the tree aren't required to be effective. Berserkers can get natural resists.

To recap. Rogues have less armor and survivability, equal damage, equal crowd control to berserkers. They get traps. Conclusion- If you want to play a rogue you must use traps to be effective. Stealth is a marginally effective skill and if you want to use a stealth build your better off going shadowblade, an even more difficult class to stat. If you want to use a character that specializes in anything other than traps you want a different class.

While I can't really argue your points I think your perspective is skewed. Yes Barbarians have an easier time then rogues and are generally a 'superior' class on all fronts but this isn't a multiplayer game and inter-class balance isn't a priority. Also Barbarians are something of an easy mode class (which isn't to put down anyone that plays them, they're just an easier class to win with much like archmages and anorithil). Barbarians are the only class I can think of that really only needs one stat to get by so while your point is true Rogues are in the same boat as a lot of other classes in needing two stats + con and hybrids have it even worse.

That said if you have suggestions on how to better balance rogues against the environment then that would be good. Every class should be winnable and any class that can't win should probably be buffed a bit.

I guess my real point isn't even that rogues are weak necessarily and I agree that this game being single player means that cross class balance isn't important. My point is that rogue might be an inaccurate name for a class that relies almost exclusively on traps to distinguish their play styles and abilities from other classes.

As it stands now, shadowblade is better at being a rogue than a rogue in every way provided the rogue doesn't use traps. Yes, traps are very powerful, abusable, and downright hilarious sometimes. (What else do you call catapulting mobs into each other, causing roadblocks because a little worm mass gets pinned in front of an army of charging giants, and generally exploding everything in sight including yourself) Yes they are good enough when used properly to make the class a good class, if not really a power house. Lure isn't particularly good with the actual setting of traps easily breaking stealth; stealth is just plain silly because everything breaks it and its usage is marginal for a trapper because of the short trap durations and the fact that actually laying traps is likely to break it.

If rogues are meant to be able to stealth up to targets and sneak attack them to death stealth needs to be looked at. Right now a non trap rogue would probably be better off wearing heavy armor and using a two handed weapon. This is obviously not an intended route for the class to take. However with stealth being broken rather easily before even attacking till very high levels, and at these sorts of levels its rare for one hit to kill the target anyways thus forcing a break of stealth to finish them off anyways, its very unfeasible to stealth kill. Combine this with a lack of an escape mechanism the shadowblade is a better class to use these tactics since they can realistically re-stealth frequently due to speed increases, built in phase door, and built in invisibility.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if rogues are meant to be a trap class, change the name, and make setting traps not break stealth by default and not only with a talent that has a high failure rate. Also potentially reduce cooldowns of traps, or increase the duration they last on the ground. If rogue is meant to trap and only trap make them a trap class and make traps last long enough to set them up and lure things to them. Right now you can have about 1 of each trap out and they last long enough only for you to be forced to set them after you already see the monsters they are meant for. Not much of a trap; more like a delayed effect spell cast. I'm not saying the current system doesn't work at all but it could be improved dramatically, and a "trapper" is at least an amusing and fun class to play.

Traps were only recently added to rogues, which means they are fully playable without that mechanic. They're nice to use, but they do not define the class. Stealth defines the class more, as they're the only ones to start with it initially available.

From your posts I can identify two suggestions for improvement:
1. Trap-laying shouldn't break stealth
2. Infusions shouldn't break stealth

I wholeheartedly support these ideas. I don't think the class needs a name change, as for me their primary focus is their dagger skills. Shadowblades may be better at some aspects of this, but are more spread thin by their magic talents. Rogues are the true backstabbing masters.

I will note I've seen videos of a high level rogue with the silent dagger and stealth always on clearing through the final dungeon with ease. Never saw him use traps...

I, too, disagree that traps define the rogue. It doesn't take long for stealth to become reliable. By level 14 and a standard investment in cunning, I don't think stealth ever broke a single time for me. I also disagree that stealth requires tree-wide investment to be effective. I found that traps became almost irrelevant once stealth stopped breaking, because nothing lived after shadowstrike'd dual strike + flurry. Then I'd be able to re-stealth and pick off the next straggler. If an enemy was within sight of too many other enemies, I'd simply pass him up and select a more isolated target. I found stealth to be incredibly effective.

Re: Rogues
I always had the trouble with the lethality tree. Two techniques there - Deadly Strikes and Willful Combat are pretty similar to each other. Maybe one of them could be replaced with some cunning movement like "delay attack for the round, in order to do bigger damage next round"?

Exemplary mechanics: "Assassin's Mark" - you mark a target, he gains an Assassin's Mark for the duration of 1 round, and each hit caused during the Mark's presence increases the damage by 50% at talent level 1, up to 100% at talent level 5. In this way marking the target should not break stealth. It would combine well with all the "extra damage" techniques already present, flurry being the most notable one, allowing for a spike in damage for the waste of 1 turn.

Alternative mechanics: "Cunning Strike" - a strike that puts the delay before the damage is dealt - basically enemies get to hit you first, then you hit them, then it's your next round. At talent level 1 you do 100% damage, increased to 200% at talent level 5.

Both versions could help with clever distribution of damage versus enemies using heal/regen infusions. E.g. use them at the last round of their regeneration infusion etc.