ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Dear Darkgod, could I hereby ask you about any plans of further differentiation for following class pairs ?
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I. Bulwark (technique/shield-offense, technique/battle-tactics") & Berserker (technique/bloodthirst, technique/2hweapon-cripple) – whole 2 differences in available talent trees.
II. Reaver (technique/combat-training, corruption/reaving-combat, corruption/scourge) & Corruptor (corruption/shadowflame, corruption/blood, corruption/blight) – whooping 3 differences in available talent trees.
III. Rogue (cunning/stealth, cunning/trapping, cunning/trapping) & Maradeur (technique/battle-tactics, technique/mobility, technique/thuggery, technique/conditioning, cunning/tactical) – taken as average, 4 differences in available talent trees.
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...While wyrmics and summoners, for example, currently has basically no common points to share between, presence of mentioned above twins is kinda ruining whole impression of corresponding meta-classes.

One thing you're not taking into account is the difference between locked and unlocked trees - category points are in very short supply, as most characters get only 4, and it's quite common to put 2 of those into inscription slots. So the fact that, for example, Berserkers have shield defense locked means that it's a lot more expensive for them to use that tree, and most will skip it just because they have equally effective options available with no extra initial investment.

Another thing is that just one or two trees can make for very large differences in playstyle. Consider Bulwark vs. Berserker: Assault, Riposte, Greater Weapon Focus, and (to a lesser extent) Bleeding Edge make Bulwarks quite good at blasting out single-target damage as quickly as possible, and Step Up lets them move around the battlefield pretty much at will. Additionally, Shield Defense leaves them nearly impregnable to melee rabble. However, they have essentially no defense against caster enemies. So the Bulwark wants to zip around the battlefield using talents to blast caster enemies before dealing with others at their leisure. Meanwhile, the Berserker generally has such low Defense and Armor that melee enemies can be respectable threats. Mortal Terror can be used to dazelock most enemies (especially combined with Death Dance), and Stunning Blow can stunlock a single enemy indefinitely. Bloodbath near-permanently gives the Berserker pretty good health regen, and Unstoppable lets them pull through large groups of damage dealing enemies without breaking a sweat. In a corridor, the Berserker bump-attacks against anything he can daze and stunlocks anything he can't; in the open he uses Death Dance+Mortal Terror to paralyze multiple enemies, or breaks out Unstoppable and gets a big heal at the end of it, making little distinction between casters and melee enemies except perhaps who to Rush and who to walk up to.

The Marauder is basically supposed to be a "combat rogue"; to that end, the Stealth+Lethality vs. Mobility+Battle Tactics+Thuggery difference serves as all the distinction they need.

The Blood tree gives Corruptors the extra options they need to function as a pure blaster, and Dark Ritual+Blood Fury gives them reasons to invest in Cunning rather than Strength. Reavers need strength for Bloodlust, which triggers a lot more often off of melee attacks and is a big enough spellpower boost that they can forgo staves, which means they actually want to get in melee sometimes. That isn't even mentioning Fearscape, which is a pretty huge difference. I agree that with the addition of Vim tree to Reavers the two classes are fairly similar, especially in the early parts of the game when they're both just dumb nukers, but I think they do end up diverging a fair amount later on.

Well-well-well… First, I believe it’s necessary to clarify myself a little: similarity <> oneness. Of course, noticeable difference in usability is achievable (think Disgaea) even by stats fluctuations. What’s even more: even 8 different talents is a lot more, than some of rival projects offer. Since that all so, I do not even dare asking why it require some perceptions check to distinguish actual diversity between mentioned gemini classes. Subject here is a lot more trivial: is there any plans to implement little more multeity for those 3 pairs in foreseeable future ?

The point of different classes is to achieve different gameplay. Sometimes this is achieved by a difference of a few trees. Sometimes it's achieved by a difference of fundamental powersource and having no two trees in common. If the gameplay is different enough between Berserkers and Bulwarks, then what pressing need is there to make further differentiation?

Obligatory disclaimer: I do not actually play Berserkers or Bulwarks. I cannot speak to how different the playstyles actually *are* - I'm going off of phantomglider's reply for that.

If the gameplay is different enough between Berserkers and Bulwarks, then what pressing need is there to make further differentiation?

To make those differential noticeable with aforementioned above perception check, or, at least, lower corresponding DC ?

Doesn't giving them a different name and description already achieve that? There is really no pressing motivation here.

Oh, sure, and we all forgot about sprite difference on creation screen ! OKay then.

Guevara-chan wrote:Dear Darkgod, could I hereby ask you about any plans of further differentiation for following class pairs ?
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I. Bulwark (technique/shield-offense, technique/battle-tactics") & Berserker (technique/bloodthirst, technique/2hweapon-cripple) – whole 2 differences in available talent trees.
II. Reaver (technique/combat-training, corruption/reaving-combat, corruption/scourge) & Corruptor (corruption/shadowflame, corruption/blood, corruption/blight) – whooping 3 differences in available talent trees.
III. Rogue (cunning/stealth, cunning/trapping, cunning/trapping) & Maradeur (technique/battle-tactics, technique/mobility, technique/thuggery, technique/conditioning, cunning/tactical) – taken as average, 4 differences in available talent trees.
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...While wyrmics and summoners, for example, currently has basically no common points to share between, presence of mentioned above twins is kinda ruining whole impression of corresponding meta-classes.

My opinion:
I. Berserkers rely way too much on the Bloodthirst tree (locked) to feel different from the other classes. Without it a Berserker is just a Wyrmic without nature skills or a squishy Bulwark. Berserkers are fun to play but they feel a bit lame before level 14 or so.
II. Reaver and Corruptor gameplay is quite different as it is... A reaver is a debuff based melee class with a couple ranged attacks while corruptors are crit stacking ranged nukers without the defense skills other mage-types have. Play a corruptor up to level 30, stack some crit and you'll see the difference.
III. A rogue which doesn't use stealth combos feels like a Marauder without the mobility skills, and I actually don't play rogues because I don't have the patience to run around all sneaky-sneaky, setup a huge damage combo and hide again. But the difference exists.

Bottomline... Berserkers could use something to differenciate them early on, probably moving Bloodthirst to a unlocked class tree and doing something about Unstoppable so you don't get it at level 12... The rest is fine as it is in my opinion.