ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

So, I notice a few things..

- There are these alchemist quests, that have some really, really nice benefits, and require you to kill specific critters with specific critter-bits. They come in tiers, so if you want to finish more than one quest for the same alchemist, you have to complete one before you can find out the ingredients necessary for the next. The bits to complete quests don't drop unless you have a quest that requires them. Some of the bits are not available until late in the game, and others appear to only be available in specific places (the maze, for example).
- Monsters don't respawn, with certain specific, largely uncontrollable, and somewhat limited exceptions (ie, things that can be generated by failing at poetry, stuff that wanders the overland map, and farportals)
- The one other way to get reagents is to kill adventurers, who are relatively trivial for most PCs at level 1 or so, potentially manageable for some specific builds in certain parts of the 10-20 range, and starkly lethal to everyone in the late game.

So, if one truly, truly cares about the alchemist quest, the appropriate thing to do is to start with someone who can get to the wilderness map at level 1 (which seems to mean non-dwarf, non-undead, non-yeek, and in recent versions non-celestial) and can get out of wolf packs without killing anything (somehow acquire the ability to phase door) and then grab an alchemist quest from each alchemist before grinding on adventurers for three levels (or however long your build can sustain it without dying). note that at this level, adventurers aren't spawning all that often, so it it takes a *while*. This also results in having some really nice gear for the level. That way, you're that much closer to having your quests done before you even start to expend dungeons. Then, keep track of the dungeons that spawn different alchemist bits, and don't go into them unless they have a bit that you want, just in case you start to require the bit that they have later. This seems... incorrect as a pattern for optimal play.

Suggested answers:
- just have alchemist reagents drop, with or without a quest that requires them. Perhaps include some sort of collecting bag, so they don't clutter up your inventory too badly. This will prevent the situation where you have to put off completing the maze because you don't have a quest that requires minotaur noses yet, and you might get such a quest later.
- Have dungeons respawn monsters in some fashion. Perhaps after you kill the boss monster of a place, it repopulates slowly, but the monsters there no longer give exp? I wasn't there for the discussion that resulted in monsters not respawning naturally, so I'm not *sure* what's up with the high degree of anti-grinding currently in the game, but it seems like there's a bizarre combination of "here are some absolutely amazing things that will make you really, really *want* to grind." and "past a certain, relatively limited point, grinding is intended to be tremendously painful and/or lethal." Is the sadism here deliberate? Am I missing something?
- increase the variety of nonadventurer wandering monsters to include everything that the alchemists require.

I'll acknowledge, I don't often make it to late game. If there's something that I'm not seeing that makes this not an issue, then by all means let me know. I'm just talking about what I see from where I stand.

Other means of finding ingredients would be nice. A few suggestions:

-Have herbalists sell a handful of alchemy ingredients
-Add small chances of dropping reagents to all enemy loot tables
-Place certain ingredients on the ground in zones that associate closely with the monster (minotaur noses in the Maze, for example)

Adding a greater variety of roaming monsters would be cool.

I know this isn't the first time I mention it but...ritch stingers. Where do adventurers in the West get these? I *HAVE* seen a ritch once, but it was in the RD, think it spawned from an orb...I'd suggest replacing that ingredient with something else or making ritches spawn in the west sometimes, though rarely.

I think you can (or could) get them from adventurer parties.

marvalis wrote:I think you can (or could) get them from adventurer parties.

Zonk wrote:Where do adventurers in the West get these?

Well, yes, that was my point. I wa referring to THESE adventurer parties. I get the stingers from them pre-east, yes... but where do they get them? They've brought them back from the East?

(Also, I don't think the ingredients adventurers drop have much to do with their level, so you could have them drop stuff from foes they could DEFINETELY not defeat)

I wished adventurers had a higher chance of dropping ingredients.

Sirrocco wrote:- The one other way to get reagents is to kill adventurers, who are relatively trivial for most PCs at level 1 or so, potentially manageable for some specific builds in certain parts of the 10-20 range, and starkly lethal to everyone in the late game.

In the endgame, necromancers have a very easy time with orc patrols and adventurer parties. And I think that archmages, corruptors, and alchemists (and maybe archers) have an easy time against adventurers as well.

Dwarf_Hammer wrote: In the endgame, necromancers have a very easy time with orc patrols and adventurer parties. And I think that archmages, corruptors, and alchemists (and maybe archers) have an easy time against adventurers as well.

Archers who focus on building up spell save/stun resistance can handle anything... except for summoners/necros/other pet classes. Adventure parties are always in open areas, so you can't depend on corridors to keep the fustercluck of enemies away like you can in standard maps, and the field of battle is small enough you can't depend on spamming teleport either. I can only image how much harder it is for melee classes. Wish adventure parties/ect were scaled to a range of 70%-100% of your level, just to help keep the difficulty down a bit.

- The one other way to get reagents is to kill adventurers, who are relatively trivial for most PCs at level 1 or so, potentially manageable for some specific builds in certain parts of the 10-20 range, and starkly lethal to everyone in the late game.

Actually, there's farportal exploration. Maybe the level generator could prioritize monsters that drop ingredients you lack.

Reat wrote:

Dwarf_Hammer wrote: In the endgame, necromancers have a very easy time with orc patrols and adventurer parties. And I think that archmages, corruptors, and alchemists (and maybe archers) have an easy time against adventurers as well.

Archers who focus on building up spell save/stun resistance can handle anything... except for summoners/necros/other pet classes. Adventure parties are always in open areas, so you can't depend on corridors to keep the fustercluck of enemies away like you can in standard maps, and the field of battle is small enough you can't depend on spamming teleport either.

My experience with summoning adventurers and skeleton archers is that one aimed scatter shot will kill all of the pets and their master in the first half of the first round. In fact, my experience suggests that with the targetting issues, the most dangerous thing for archers is their own scatter shot ;p

I think the skeleton archer vs adventurer win loss ratio so far is about 800 to 1. ( I still have no clue what happened with the 1 - paralysed or something I guess )

jotwebe wrote:Actually, there's farportal exploration. Maybe the level generator could prioritize monsters that drop ingredients you lack.

Or an option to try to "select" a specific world to visit. Kind of a Guardian of Forever moment, where you tell the portal to activate, but you wait as it spins rapidly through visions of different worlds (rather than taking it immediately) to try to pick one in particular. Gameplay-wise, this option costs extra energy since the portal is open longer.

Zonk wrote:Well, yes, that was my point. I wa referring to THESE adventurer parties. I get the stingers from them pre-east, yes... but where do they get them? They've brought them back from the East?

Unlike the idiot player, adventurer parties probably have people within them that actually know how to swim... or are willing to walk the sea floor with waterbreathing kit. They just go bug the yeeks or something. Advn parties have a lot of neat tricks the player seems incapable of keying on to (Oh hey, friends! Friends with class levels!)

Also yeeks, of course. Probably a black market for ritch stingers and junk, if they can be used to make stuff that, yanno', turns you temporarily invincible and permanently buffs your stats and junk. Plenty of yeeks getting off the island and dying in the west, too. At least some of them probably have a few ritch stingers on (or in, I suppose, if they swing that way) them.