ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Preamble

As a developer myself, I know critiquing things and being critiqued is very a sensitive topic. It takes a lot of courage to put out open source software and to allow people to play your labored-over beta code. I know a lot of love has gone into this game, and I personally like TOME a lot. I'm a newer player, I think b18 was my first experience. I even donated, not to brag, not because I expect special attention, just to state a fact about how I love the potential of this game. That said, I've been around the forums enough to realize that the developers of this game truly do want to make something that is solid and awesome. I hope my message that I've written here is digested, but also remember that I'm merely a single data point among your many players.

Please consider this feedback also to be a from a new player _trying to get into the TOME experience_ but that I haven't made the travels through the various versions of this game as others have done.

Abstract

TOME is a very difficult game. The player character is not Rambo, Kratos, Zeus, or even Nikita (the Anne Parillaud version). The player character is very mortal and fragile because TOME is a roguelike, and as such death is always imminent and lies around every corner. Roguelike games force the player to deal with two overall strategic problems, and these strategic problems give a particular roguelike it's flavor. One type of roguelikes I'll classify as indeterminate: the player character is in a never-ending survival mode and the player _will_ die, it is only a matter of time. The other type of roguelike I'll call determinate: they subject the player character to a gauntlet, but the gauntlet has a specific, binary end to it: the player either vanquishes the foes and saves the world, or the player dies in the quest. I believe TOME, from my experiences with it, is working on being a determinate roguelike (the main version of the game, that is), but my experience from b18 to b25 is that it has too many indeterminate qualities to it for me to spend any more time playing it in its current stage.

Problem Statement

Relatively good games with very prepared player characters can still end abruptly in extreme moments of unbalance, in particular when the player character transitions from what seems to be the relatively balanced first half of the game to the second half of the game. The problem with these moments of unbalance is they're often permanently fatal, as it doesn't matter if I have 9 lives or 1, the things that can kill me indiscriminately can continue to do so whether or not I get a rest period with the Eidelon.

What I believe is the source of the problem: Not ready for the East, but didn't have a lot of options (a real life example)

My current character is a very strong level 35 Shaloren Archmage, named Goober (I know, silly name) who is probably going to face his last deaths in Vor Armory. I had been playing very carefully, and would have preferred to stay in the West awhile longer, but there just wasn't anything left to do. Monster levels were too low. Shops didn't seem to be regenerating loot, and I had received all of the major drops I was going to get. I had also bashed my way through Reknor multiple times, but at some point the experience was slowing to a crawl and there just seemed to be no reason to stay in the West. My previous experience told me wasn't ready for the East, but I seemed to have exhausted all options.

So I plunge into the East portion of the game at level 33.

Example: Shaloren, your life force is running out
Fast forward a bit to the Vor Armory. Prior to this I cleaned out the spiders, very carefully, gaining a few levels in the process, but really wanting to reconnect to the West so I can go deposit my treasures. That means I need to clean out the Vor Armory, which my past 2 characters who made it to the East the Vor Armory had not been that difficult. Note: those characters still ended up meeting similar fates as this character likely will, hence why I'm writing this post. They just happened to meet their very quick demises outside of the Vor Armory.

Goober very quickly lost 3 lives almost back to back in the Vor Armory, and it was the most recent death that has caused me to put the game down.

Here's my most recent death and how it was presented to me in the log (verbatim):
That's it. Previous to this in my log was information about items I was walking on. After this, other than all my sustained spells deactivating, no other messages in the console log that pertained to my death.

My death prior to that one was very fast too, although this death I'm more forgiving of: a lot of damage (around 500) followed by something that essentially just killed me. The reason I died here was a little more acceptable as my teleport, which I thought was going to take my character out of range, dropped me into a room that (technically, I guess) my teleport range code place me in. This particular random luck of the draw didn't actually take me away from the two level 85+ multi-hued wyrms in the Vor Armory. Bummer, but this death is more roguelike and I can accept a lump hear and there as my strategy was sound, my tactical choices correct, but RNG got me.

My death prior to the two above was due to an alarm trap being sprung, thus getting surrounded by orc warriors and a lower level orc cryomancer. Not a problem, or so I thought, as for the first time since Wrathroot I got stunned, although this was by being encased in ice. I'm aware stun resist and encase in ice are completely different effects, but my spell save is what I think is pretty good for a level 35 character -- 63 points. Almost no spell effects were hurting me and all of a sudden a multi-turn encasement in ice that leads to death. Bummer.

My appeal for future versions: Balance over new Content
Balance is difficult, and I find it personally boring. But balance in games is a necessary evil. I personally can't put my finger on it, but I think I can sum it up as follows:

TOME has an excellent atmosphere. It's the atmosphere and potential that will have me return after some time has passed.

TOME, being a determinate roguelike, is just too rough on players (well, at least me) in the transition phase between the West and East. It's too difficult to prepare for the difficulty jump (my opinion) and being "trapped in the West" is an annoying punishment for accomplishing so much in so many hours and days up to that point.

Suggestions that I would make for future versions of the game. This is not my game, and I don't expect anything to be implemented, but these are still my suggestions that have come out of my experience with playing the beta versions:

• Cut back on the amount of equivalent status effect types. In my opinion, there are too many. For example: the equivalence of stun, confusion, pinned to the ground, being frozen, and I've probably missed a few. All of these can be absurdly deadly in TOME because they prevent player activity, and they all require different resists. Ugh.
• Allow characters to become more god-like with a lot of work, time and patience. Player characters should not be able to become immune to everything -- for example, the deadly Black Dragons, Medusa, and fighting Cockatrices on a day with a full moon in Nethack spring to mind -- but each and every difficult challenge should have at least one real, accessible solution to it.
• Refine the characters, areas, talents, infusions, runes… etc… currently in the game. The game is really, really rich, but each new beta release seems way too different from each previous beta release. I'd rather have a period of no new content with just refinements… that's what betas are supposed to be anyway, a refinement period.
• Add a more gradual progression from the West to the East, or at least allow what I would consider waystations along the way. The single town in the East, the very difficult and random Orc Patrols, and the very deadly dungeons that one must traverse to return to the West are just too abrupt (for my personal tastes).
• If an effect can be "saved" against, have the actual effect duration be reducible vs. the save being all or nothing. Being pinned to the ground for webs is an example, or being encased in ice. There should be easier ways to reduce not just the chance, but the effects.

Thanks for reading my long winded article. I'll see you again after some time, and game revisions, have passed.

63 spell save isn't enough to depend on in the east. Partial saves would be interesting though and I've heard that idea tossed around before (but what goes for players goes for enemies too).

This thread should probably be moved to spoilers or ideas. It's not really a bug report >.>

Hello, first thanks for the well written post, I love those

About the lvl 85 wyrms, they are supposed to be "bonus" for people that want to tackle them, you are not meant to do them when you first come there, but there are not enough warnings in place (and you can teleport in unknowingly), so I'll consider that one a bug.

Stun resist does protect from freeze effect, but freeze effect (contrary to stun) is fully binary, either you are frozen or you are not. Whereas with stuns you still get to act some turns based on your resist.
There is a thread floating around about changing freeze and I agree, it's not fun as it is.

About equivalent status effects all those you listen (except stun & freeze) are really quite different. I much prefer to be pinned than to be confused.
When pined you can teleport out, when confused you can use a wild infusion (or any other instant talents) to get out, and so on.

The switch from west to east is indeed a tad brutal, ardhungol is supposed to make it obvious but the vor armoury is probably too hard for the time it is presented. Maybe it should become available only after a while ?
Did you try the orc prides first?

As for new content vs balance, I like to do both. Each release balances some stuff and adds some more, you've been around only since b18 but if you chance like b4 you'll see how much more deadly things were back then (in b1 it was quite the accomplishment to get out of the first zone).
But yes, as you point out, balance *is* important and I always considered it so, which is why I like posts like yours.

edge2054 wrote:This thread should probably be moved to spoilers or ideas. It's not really a bug report >.>

Done. I moved this to Development as the most appropriate spot.

Concerning your post, I don't believe the transition is *THAT* violent from west to east. The fact is there are a couple of things that can kill characters almost unexpectedly, and those are the dreaded orc patrols and the Vor Armoury 'Surprise' room. The prides are actually quite safe once you know what you're doing.
Just so you know I understand your feelings, my last toon to the east died in the Vor armoury... Doing reasonably well, smacking orcs left and right, until an orc cryomancer decides to teleport me... to our favourite room... Dead, Blood of Life... Dead again. Thank you RNG. After you spend that many hours on a toon you get upset when he goes down, especially if it feels cheesy.

Considering the topic, I love the extra content and everything, but the game was already very solid a few betas ago. Every time a new patch hits the game seems to have more bugs to iron out, and those start getting to me... Infinite loop errors, random crashes, freezes, etc. Those annoy into stop playing, and it's not the first time I just stop and wait for the next beta, hoping that it won't become unplayable mid-game. I remember playing beta 11 or so, and the game went from start to finish with barely a hiccup, now that's impossible.
My point is, please hold on the new content and focus on ironing out the bugs and set a release candidate. The game has already reached a point where it can be a solid and fun experience from start to finish, with a lot of depth and strategic play... if only it just didn't crash so often...

You have game stopping bugs in b25?

I had tons of game-stopping bugs in b23 and b24 ... those were terrible betas in that case.
I haven't had any game-killing bugs in b25 yet, but I haven't played it long enough to say they're not there. So far I've only ran into a couple of annoying map bugs.

Let's all forget that b22/23/24 existed please, I'm already ashamed enough :/

LOL... I have to agree, they weren't stirling betas (in fact, they may have been alphas).

Anyway, I'd like to see stabilization, and release candidate releases shortly. I agree the game is rich, though I am not really able to comment on the east (though I did go to Vor's once with an archer, but it was a walk in the park as the wyrms all died on the lava... I just picked up loot, and tunneled in from the back of the whole structure).

ToME has some features which I've never really explored as it does not really appeal to me in the setting (temporal wardens, yeeks, the whole time travel thing), but it's definately rich enough.

Releases are tricky, as it starts to set things into stone, and development slows down, as feature freezes etc. happens. Also, it almost needs a seperate manager from the developer who can drive towards deadlines and outcomes.

Mark Shuttleworth said that developers have an itch to scratch, they don't seem to work towards goals except with proper management. And that is the challenge with releases vs infinite betas.

I agree on most points, but it should of course be remembered that these are still betas and problems exist to be found by we who play. Simply giving up on the game because you're annoyed with a bug or imbalance is the wrong response - report clearly every element of imbalance or buggy behaviour is the best way to improve the game. If you play the betas you have to expect a certain amount of pain to come with the pleasure. It would be nice if releases came with more bug-testing before they're shipped, but it's impossible for extensive playtesting to happen without *us* doing the testing.

I think the East transition can be immensely tough. I've never had a char survive long over there - every battle seems to end up as tense as a boss fight. One problem is the difficulty exploring the whole area without getting frelled by orc patrols (though I've yet to see the toned down patrols). Another is the lack of structure to say what's hard and what's not. It seems most natural of all to do the West quests first, but that may not be best for every character. No real information is given on what to expect in each Pride, or where one should go first.

I'd personally suggest that Zemy-whatsit only give the quest once you've defeated at least one orc Pride. Before that he'll just say "Eh, who are you? Never heard of ya, now stop botherin' me!" It would also be nice to receive far more detailed information on the location of each Pride and what to expect from each one, perhaps from Aeryn, and preferably the dialogue option wouldn't disappear after being chosen so you can get it repeated.

And yeah, less binary status effects. Frozen is the most lethal, and becomes much more common in the East.

Another is the lack of structure to say what's hard and what's not.

This is a big problem throughout the game, even in the West. As a level 15 character, there's no way to tell while walking around the world map that the Scintillating Caves are a walk in the park at that point, whereas the Mark of the Spellblaze is certain death. Once you enter you do get a level feeling, but these are vague and often very inaccurate.

The east is worse only in that most players spend most of their time in the west, and thus become much more familiar with what to expect in the west dungeons than the east.

One solution that would be very helpful is some indication of dungeon difficulty *before* entering, like was available for the TOME 2.0 quests. For instance, walking around the world map you could add recommended level ranges to the entrance descriptions, ie "There is an entrance to the Scintillating Caves here (lvl 1-5)" or "There is an entrance to the Mark of the Spellblaze here (lvl 25-35)."

On the note of the transition between east and west, I agree that it seems a bit... much. TOME nearly is the X (space sim) of roguelike games, and the east/west transition really doesn't help any. Most players spend a few days figuring out what works and what doesn't in the West, then surprise surprise, their proven strategies are totally ineffective once they hit the Far East. So they have to know that they need a new strategy for the Far East and need to just automatically switch to it once they get there. At the risk of drawing the ire of some of you, maybe the west needs to have its difficulty amped to the point where there is no transition in difficulty between the West and East, or alternatively that the East is nerfed to the same point? Would save a LOT of headaches I think, than trying to remember that it's nearly two different games.

I had a similar thought as Hedrachi. With the number of dungeons added to the west some of the later dungeons, specifically Dreadfell and Reknor could stand to have their difficulty bumped up, both to make them more challenging when you get there (players will tend to be higher level when they reach them now then ever before) and so the transition from east to west difficulty is smoother.

The master used to be a mid game mile stone but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

I don't mind having a challenging game, but it should still be reasonably fair to newer players--and *surprise* death usually isn't exactly fair.

By the way, you shouldn't feel too bad, jeremyosborne, the room of which you speak is commonly referred to as "The Room of Death". There really should be some kind of heads up for that. Also, in my experience, mages are among the harder classes to keep alive, so congrats on making it to the Far East! Btw, increasing your characters movement speed is a very effective way to avoid orc patrols if you don't want to fight them, and magic users would do well to use invisibility runes if they do fight the patrols. Also, the character in Gates of Morning does warn you that orc patrols are dangerous, and the orc ambush should be another sign that orcs are to be feared. Some classes, on the other hand, don't find the orc patrols particularly difficult, so ymmv.

DarkGod, I agree: the Vor Armoury, as is, should probably only be available after a little while in the East. On the whole, though, I don't think the East needs toned back. The West actually has a number of deadly, challenging moments, but players just become more familiar with them more quickly. The East should be more challenging than the West, and it should be challenging in different ways, and I think the game succeeds on both counts (but there is always room for tweaks). 'course, I'm also with edge2054 and Hedrachi: make Dreadfell and Reknor a better preparatory transition for the East.

Oh, I have an idea to make the orc patrols more reasonable--and more interesting. When you first get to the East, have many more orc patrols on the world map, but make each patrol have fewer orcs in them. For sake of example, let's suppose there is a fixed number of orc patrols. Then, the more orc patrols you destroy, the fewer patrols are left. BUT, the fewer orc patrols are left, the stronger they become (by having more orcs in the patrol party, or having the orcs be even higher level, or both). The orc patrols should begin easier than they are now, and end harder than they are now. If a player is able to destroy all the orc patrols, then they should gain an achievement and perhaps a reward. Also, if a human patrol party destroys an orc patrol, then that shoudn't reduce the total number of orc patrols left (imho).

One last rambling thought -- the only thing more fun than playing ToME, jeremyosborne, is helping contribute to ToME! You might be surprised by how quickly specific, reasonable suggestions are implemented (and how quickly reasonable patches are applied). I am sure your ability to construct well thought out sentences--let alone whole paragraphs and posts --would be most welcome and appreciated by the (small-ish but wonderful) ToME community. So, I'm wondering, how would you "Allow characters to become more god-like with a lot of work, time and patience"? My recent Rogue winner was fairly god-like in its own way, although it is level 50 with 2510% experience. Man, it would have been nice (but not necessary) to get *something* for the extra 2510% experience...

tiger_eye wrote:I don't mind having a challenging game, but it should still be reasonably fair to newer players--and *surprise* death usually isn't exactly fair.

I agree to an extent, but you should always factor in the RNG. Eliminating surprise death completely takes out some of the uncertainty of the game is this a good or bad thing? I don't know.

tiger_eye wrote:By the way, you shouldn't feel too bad, jeremyosborne, the room of which you speak is commonly referred to as "The Room of Death". There really should be some kind of heads up for that. Also, in my experience, mages are among the harder classes to keep alive, so congrats on making it to the Far East! Btw, increasing your characters movement speed is a very effective way to avoid orc patrols if you don't want to fight them, and magic users would do well to use invisibility runes if they do fight the patrols. Also, the character in Gates of Morning does warn you that orc patrols are dangerous, and the orc ambush should be another sign that orcs are to be feared. Some classes, on the other hand, don't find the orc patrols particularly difficult, so ymmv.

Completely agree and I will add my congrats to getting a mage to the east - it is a tough challenge.

tiger_eye wrote:DarkGod, I agree: the Vor Armoury, as is, should probably only be available after a little while in the East.

I don't agree, the Vor Armoury is an early doer for me. It is on the whole tough but fair. I include the room in that.

tiger_eye wrote:On the whole, though, I don't think the East needs toned back. The West actually has a number of deadly, challenging moments, but players just become more familiar with them more quickly. The East should be more challenging than the West, and it should be challenging in different ways, and I think the game succeeds on both counts (but there is always room for tweaks). 'course, I'm also with edge2054 and Hedrachi: make Dreadfell and Reknor a better preparatory transition for the East.

I agree the East does not need toning back, it is more challenging than the west and I think the ramping up that goes in is again fair. I don't think you need to make Reknor or Dreadfell tougher to make the transition easier - on the other hand it would do no harm either.

tiger_eye wrote:Oh, I have an idea to make the orc patrols more reasonable--and more interesting. When you first get to the East, have many more orc patrols on the world map, but make each patrol have fewer orcs in them. For sake of example, let's suppose there is a fixed number of orc patrols. Then, the more orc patrols you destroy, the fewer patrols are left. BUT, the fewer orc patrols are left, the stronger they become (by having more orcs in the patrol party, or having the orcs be even higher level, or both). The orc patrols should begin easier than they are now, and end harder than they are now. If a player is able to destroy all the orc patrols, then they should gain an achievement and perhaps a reward. Also, if a human patrol party destroys an orc patrol, then that shoudn't reduce the total number of orc patrols left (imho).

Interesting, don't make them too much easier but it sounds fun.

tiger_eye wrote:One last rambling thought -- the only thing more fun than playing ToME, jeremyosborne, is helping contribute to ToME! You might be surprised by how quickly specific, reasonable suggestions are implemented (and how quickly reasonable patches are applied). I am sure your ability to construct well thought out sentences--let alone whole paragraphs and posts --would be most welcome and appreciated by the (small-ish but wonderful) ToME community. So, I'm wondering, how would you "Allow characters to become more god-like with a lot of work, time and patience"? My recent Rogue winner was fairly god-like in its own way, although it is level 50 with 2510% experience. Man, it would have been nice (but not necessary) to get *something* for the extra 2510% experience...

I am not a dev and I leave that sort of thing to those who enjoy it. I do enjoy the fruits of their labour and I know for a fact that all the devs listen and change the game in line with well thought out suggestions. Why not stick around and help, make the suggestions, get the game changed for the better - it's good now, help us all to make it great.