ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

madmonk wrote: So how do I get a given effect? Consider the following situation we have an RTL of 4 and an SMM of 1.3 this gives an ETL of 5.2. Currently my understanding is that if you have an ETL of 5.2 you will get the given effect. I would argue that this is incorrect, it gives players the ability to only raise a talent to level 4 and with an appropriate SMM gain a given effect - this is cheap in my opinion. It also gives a considerable bonus to those schools who start with an 1.3 multiplier.

madmonk wrote: Adjust Schools as follows:

Group Schools into core and periferal schools
Core Schools have a starting SMM of 1.0
Periferal Schools have a starting SMM of 0.7

Adjust Talents as follows:

Allow the RTL to be increased every level by players choosing to spend talent points in a given talent. Have no limit on the maximum RTL... Display the ETL at all levels. This means that you could have a one-shot wonder player, say an ArchMage who invests everything into Manathrust...
If an RTL indicates an effect comes in to play at a certain level, then it will be granted at the RTL point rather then the ETL point. This means that players who have Phase Door as a peripheral school talent are not penalised by having a low SMM.

This could mean that some talents may have to be adjusted (Riposte is an obvious one).

madmonk wrote: Allow the RTL to be increased every level by players choosing to spend talent points in a given talent. Have no limit on the maximum RTL... Display the ETL at all levels. This means that you could have a one-shot wonder player, say an ArchMage who invests everything into Manathrust...

    if self:knowTalent(self.T_AVOID_FATE) then
        local af = .6 - (self:getTalentLevel(self.T_AVOID_FATE)/20)
        print ("af->", af)
        local av = self.max_life * af
        if value >= self.life and self.life >= av then
            value = self.life - 1
            game.logSeen(self, "%s has avoided a fatal blow!!", self.name:capitalize())
        end
    end

edge2054 wrote:[Anyway I like the structure you're proposing. It might be interesting in a module but I think the Tome module is well underway and that things work just fine as they stand. Revamping (and rebalancing) every talent in the game sounds like a massive under taking and I don't think it'd be worth the effort.

For instance you could have an RTL of 1 in each Talent in a School. If your SMM is also 1 this would give an effective multiplier of 1. If your SMM is 2 then your multiplier would be 2 and so on. So you could have an RTL of 5 points in a particular Talent in a school, which would then be multiplied by the SMM to arrrive at your ETL (Effective Talent Level) multiplier for a particular talent.

What is in place:
Schools have been put in place. Currently running from a Mastery multiplier of 0.7 to 1.3. Again this works well in the current system, although here again I would argue that we have artificial constraints on how often we can raise the SMM.

Effects at a given level:
So how do I get a given effect? Consider the following situation we have an RTL of 4 and an SMM of 1.3 this gives an ETL of 5.2. Currently my understanding is that if you have an ETL of 5.2 you will get the given effect. I would argue that this is incorrect, it gives players the ability to only raise a talent to level 4 and with an appropriate SMM gain a given effect - this is cheap in my opinion. It also gives a considerable bonus to those schools who start with an 1.3 multiplier.

Group Schools into core and periferal schools
Core Schools have a starting SMM of 1.0
Periferal Schools have a starting SMM of 0.7

Leave the opening up of new schools that is currently in play alone (so you only get the new school at CL 10, 20, etc, etc). Leave also the ability to pick up new schools in other ways (quests, training etc). Remember all of these schools start as periferal.

Allow the SMM to be increased every level by players choosing to spend talent points there rather than in a given talent. Consideration should be given to the amount that the SMM is increased by, though I quite like the .1 increase currently in play. Have no limit on the maximum SMM...

Adjust Talents as follows:
Allow the RTL to be increased every level by players choosing to spend talent points in a given talent. Have no limit on the maximum RTL... Display the ETL at all levels. This means that you could have a one-shot wonder player, say an ArchMage who invests everything into Manathrust...
If an RTL indicates an effect comes in to play at a certain level, then it will be granted at the RTL point rather then the ETL point. This means that players who have Phase Door as a peripheral school talent are not penalised by having a low SMM.

This could mean that some talents may have to be adjusted (Riposte is an obvious one).

Consideration should also be given to increasing the amount of points that can be allocated by 1 point. If these proposals go into effect then we could end up severely point starved!

Final Master wrote: I agree that this really should be changed. The idea that your overall mastery of all talents in the category directly effects the availability of any bonus abilities is wrong. School mastery levels should show the difference in the various classes abilities (flavor) in the various talents of survival. They should also solely represent the power of the individual talents. Just because you are a 'rogue' could mean you are really good at what you know, but NOT that you know absolutely every trick to your profession. Raw talent level should be used to judge the availability of bonus effects, such as the blinding benefit of Illumination at level 3.

I assume that this is referring to the currently used Class (Core) and Generic (Periferal) terms used in the game? If so, we don't need the name change I believe, and the direct reduction of mastery levels because it is a class or generic talent tree shouldn't happen. IF the talent trees were adjusted to where certain talent trees were class for them, but generic to another, THEN I can see this making more sense. The problem with a flat rate here, is the last couple of sentences in the previous section. It destroys the flavor, and kind of rocks balance a bit too hard. I also don't see altered talent trees based on class (the class for one generic for another bit) happening any time soon, if ever, so again, I wouldn't suggest a change like this.

Don't agree with at all. Raising the school mastery by using class/generic talent points (even at an increased rate) would DESTROY the 'reqirement x' bit to raising talents. If I wanted to, I could put 1 point into stone skin, strike, ect then convert all my points every level to the earth mastery. It may be a small effect compared to manually raising the talent directly, but end the end it's a bargain; raising 4 talents for the price of 1 (or 2, 3...). However, I do also like that when you use a category point that it raises the mastery by a full 0.10 points. It's a good number, keep it.

Passively active talents would need serious reworking and it would be a nightmare to check all the additional math for such a feat. I wouldn't want to impose that on anyone, and I think that it isn't really needed. Of course though, if someone wants to try it, I'll support em as much as I can, because if ti COULD be implemented, it would be really cool I think.

function _M:getTalentLevelRawReq(id)
	if type(id) == "table" then id = id.id end
	local raw_level = self:getTalentLevelRaw(id)
	local offset = 0
    local t = self.talents_def[id]
	-- Keep reducing the raw talent level until the requirements are met
	while (raw_level + offset > 0) and not self:canLearnTalent(t, offset) do
	    offset = offset - 1
        end
	return raw_level + offset
end

I already think that we are a bit starved on generic and category talent points. Currently the allocation of points are: 3 Category, 61 Class, 40 Generic with a bonus of 2 class and 1 generic if you beat a certain sandy boss. I say keep a generic talent point available at the 5 level interval level ups, and still allow the 2 class points at these levels. This would give 10 more generic points (say hello weapon focus), still let class points be more dominant (and thus the class keeps in more with it's theme), and simply allow a good number of classes to really be capable of surviving well.

That may be how a level 50 fighter would sit right now. He's got his health, his accuracy and damage, his defense, trap awareness and a possible escape plan if stuff doesn't work out. If 10 more generic points were available, I could see points in Trap Disarming, more in Disengage, and possibly points in the Slime talent tree, maybe even the Dirty Fighting tree. This would allow for broader, better rounded builds that may not need to completely max out certain talents (weapon focus/trap detection) because they have abilities they otherwise wouldn't have the points to dump into them.

Now, the one shot wonder idea. I really think that this isn't such a good idea. For one, talent use system (aka cooldowns) would destroy the plausibility of a build around a single talent (even something like Inferno). I don't think the ability to create a character that is capable of only 1 trick should be possible or implemented because it's simply not realistic in the game lore, nor is it a realistic character type to play. Also, it would require even more changes to the system than what I and others have already proposed, on it's own. As much as I love lightning, chain lightning and thunderstorm, and the fact that I usually make my archmages uninsulated transformers on legs, I don't want to sit there and just dump everything I can into those three talents and it's mastery every level, because it wouldn't feel right, and would be unbalanced (sorry, I'm starting to let my mind wander to other things as I'm typing this now. I'll add more and better arguments later)

Thanks for the thread, and I do actually like some of your ideas very much madmonk.

yufra wrote: Heartily agreed, thank you both madmonk and FM. Although I don't agree with all the points you bring up, the discussion forces me to consider why I don't and that can never be a bad thing.

edge2054 wrote:Yufra do I copy that code over something or just drop it in?

edge2054 wrote:Maybe I did something wrong but it's not playing well with the resource talents (stamina, positive and negative energy for example). It's not loading any of those. 12b.

	talents_types = {
		["base/race"]={true, 0.0},
		["base/class"]={true, 0.0},
	},

game.player:learnTalentType("base/race")
game.player:learnTalentType("base/class")