On the fungus tree...

[Frumple]

Okay, so current thoughts: It's insane. A bit more verbose, via IRC log:

18:44 Frumple Okay, so yeah. Playing after a while, since my main computer broke. Trying svn, which actually compiled so yaay. Anyway, Fungus tree. AHAHAHAHAHA.
18:45 Frumple I have one point in it. Dwarf wyrmic. Level one. Functionally invincible. This is great!
18:56 Goblinz so its a bit on the powerful side then
19:02 Frumple It's the aegis of /regeneration/
19:02 Frumple Which is, like, the only general use defensive effect that's better than shields =p
19:03 Goblinz I prefer shields. I bit harder to negate
19:03 Frumple Harder to find, though
19:03 Goblinz also it easier to prevent damage than take remove damage
19:03 Frumple And both work through freeze, so...
19:03 Goblinz true
19:04 Goblinz I play skeletons though .... so I have a nice shield already
19:04 Frumple But yeah. Two points in it, and my starting regen infusion lasts 9 turns =p
--
19:18 Frumple Okay, this... I'm not sure. Maybe it can be right, I'unno.
19:18 Goblinz what weird ?
19:18 Frumple But I'm currently turning a 104 hp regen infusion into a 252.36 hp regen infusion.
19:18 Frumple I mean... over 9 turns, yes. But...
19:19 Frumple No healmod, but there is .55 hp regen. Still.
19:19 Frumple Is silly.
19:21 Goblinz seems too good?
19:21 Frumple Is so far effing ridiculous. Will have to see how is later.
19:21 Frumple The duration thing, especially, is a ridiculous heal multiplier =p
19:22 Frumple Turns 28.04 for 5 turns into 28.04 for 9. Just the duration boost almost doubles the regen infusion's total heal.
19:22 Frumple Wait, sorry. Just hit 4/5. +5 turn duration is literal +100% increase, with the actual per-turn regen improvement added on.
19:23 Frumple It's deliciously insane, but insane nonetheless.
19:24 Frumple Yeah, at 5/5 now, 26 mindpower. Turning 104 hp heal into 287 hp heal <3
19:24 Frumple Otherwise known as ten turns of 28.7 hp/round regen
19:24 Frumple ... at level 8.
19:25 Frumple The infusion heals more than my max HP
19:25 Goblinz lol
19:26 Frumple Fixing... I'unno. I'd probably start making the duration boost 1/1/2/2/3
19:26 Goblinz what is it currently?
19:26 Frumple Or nixing the duration boost entirely and jacking up the +% modifier
19:26 Frumple Oh, uh
19:26 Frumple I think 3/4/4/5/5?
19:26 Frumple Yeah, about that
19:27 Frumple But again, that +5 duration literally doubles the regen infusion's heal, which is... kinda' insane
19:28 Frumple Alternately, could have it increase the duration by a percentage. Might benefit highers more without making infusions bugnuts.
19:30 Goblinz it effects higher's bloom?
19:30 Frumple Well, not sure
19:30 Frumple But figured it did. If it doesn't, probably should.

Thoughts, opinions? Does this need to go in the ideas forum? But yeah, is it going to get toned down?

I'm absolutely loving it, but this thing is the problem with Aegis kicked up a notch

E: Wild growth duration on effective, not raw. That... no. Needs to be on raw. And shorter, but definitely on raw. My svn funguscheck critter now has regeneration infusions whose duration is longer than infusion saturation.

Later E:

21:09 Frumple 214 hp regen infusion on level 2 of scint caves. Wheeee
21:09 Frumple *Bam*
21:10 Frumple 79.09 hp regen. 12 turn duration when activated.
21:10 Frumple Which is... 949.08? Almost 1k hp heal at... clvl 14. Wheeeee

Though I think that first turn doesn't count, so... 870-ish. But yeah. I can basically full-heal myself about three times over, in terms of raw HP healed.

This... this must be what playing the weirdling beast feels like.

Last E of this post: Anyone know exactly what ancestral life's "Each time a regeneration effect is used on you you gain %d%% of a turn." actually does? I don't seem to notice an effect.

[edge2054]

I haven't played with it yet but it sounds like the simple solution would be for that talent to only increase duration rather than increasing both healing and duration (because improved duration increases healing as you pointed out).

In other words something like improves the duration of all your regeneration effects by 1 turn per talent level (and just start the mastery at 1.0).

So a dedicated player that wanted to invest a category point could hit +6 turns (and thus +120% regen infusions efficiency) but most players would only hit 100%. While the through put of a regen infusion would be greatly improved by this effect the actual regen per turn would not be.

I find this more interesting because it encourages the player to use say one nice regen infusion (and pretty much keep this always going) and one or two healing infusions (which also have good synergy with the tree) + whatever else they care to use.

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Another thought, and one I bet a lot of people won't like

Decouple healing modifier from regeneration. Most effects and abilities view healing and regeneration as two completely separate mechanics yet healing modifier does not. This would be a direct nerf to regeneration infusions and other regeneration effects but would make straight healing a more valuable tool and encourage the player to use more active forms of healing instead of just popping a regen infusion and hoping their tank holds out.

Then...

Convert the life regen bonus on wild growth into healing factor. This way the talent gives synergy with both healing and regeneration with out being overpowered, by boosting healing factor directly and the duration of regeneration effects.

Just a thought.

[Frumple]

It'd also be a direct nerf to healing mod itself, though... which already is kinda' niche re: the stacking thereof. It'd be another kick to the pants to bloodbath too... and the combat veteran hp regen talent. Among other things, like Higher's Bloom, o'course. I don't think healmod really needs a nerf, exactly, it's just that wild growth is, well... ridiculous.

As the kind of thinking it over thing, what I'd probably suggest is that the duration and regen % boost get... well, coupled, I guess you'd say. Basically have it increase the base heal by the percentage, then spread it out over the full duration, as opposed to the % increase and duration being basically separate things.

So for a 100 hp regen infusion at 30% boost and +5 duration, instead of getting 20 hp/round (i.e. 100 over five) sans wild growth, you'd be getting 13 hp/round with it, but for ten turns (130 over ten). It'd be a much more direct aegis mirror that way, and still considerably less hilariously powerful.

Remember that +5 duration is a flat 100% bonus (at like, what, clevel four at earliest?) to the heal, which is way more powerful (at least in terms of raw numbers) than even Aegis's shielding talent. If it were going to be just duration, I'd still say it'd need to go 1/1/2/2/3.

This would also make it so wild growth usage would have a bit of an incentive to turn off, while still being quite powerful (and still synergizing well with ancestral life, of course.).

But yeah, seriously. Take a mo' when you get a sec, run a wyrmic around with fungus. It's great fun, if ridiculous.

[edge2054]

Remember that +5 duration is a flat 100% bonus (at like, what, clevel four at earliest?) to the heal, which is way more powerful (at least in terms of raw numbers) than even Aegis's shielding talent.

Nah. It basically frees an inscription slot and cuts the opportunity cost of having regeneration up for 10 turns, which is balanced with 5 generic points in my opinion.

This is way different then doubling the healing per turn which lets you tank bigger hits and ignore having to use a heal (which is my issue with healing modifier applying to regeneration effects but that's besides the point).

A passive regen for ten turns is really nice, don't get me wrong. But if you look at raw numbers the Higher regeneration effect is better then the starting regen infusion... (100 healing vs 60) but ask yourself which is better at keeping you alive? And this is only a 2 point difference per turn.

Anyway, I agree that the current incarnation sounds pretty ridiculous. I'll test it out on a wyrmic here in a minute.

[Salkhir]

I looked elsewhere but haven't managed to find anything in regards to compiling current SVN such as the one frumple has been going on about. Is there anywhere on here that allows you to find and download the current and then compile, and if so would you mind pointing me in the right direction because I know a lot of the issues I have been having with beta 38 that is currently putting me off such as the issues with being able to play an archer effectively and certain set items not working.

Cheers in advance.

[Frumple]

I used this. Instructions on how to get your paws on the svn is also on the wiki.

However, those instructions have been pretty spotty for me (and others) in terms of actually working, so your milage may vary. They worked for me, for the current revision, on a particular computer, during a certain hour, of a singular day, of a unique week, of a lone month, of two-thousand twelve, anno domini.

So, uh. Good luck If the instructions don't work, stop by the IRC channel and see if someone can help yeh.

[Salkhir]

Your a unique little epic legend frumple, I will give it a shot when I get home from work tonight. Cheers Well if it doesn't work Ill have to go back in time to that particular week and steal your computer. Who knows I might get lucky *Grins*

[omni]

Doomed would see an interesting boost by decoupling healing mod from regeneration. Unintended side effect ahoy. It's part of the unnatural body talent that hate level affects healing modifier.

[darkgod]

Wild Growth has been nerfed, some has the Aegis tree

[Sirrocco]

Playing around with the fungus tree on a relatively low-level wyrmic - the fact that regen cannot stack makes Fungal Growth actively counterproductive much of the time. Essentially, I have a regen "slot" - I'm only allowed to have one regen up at a time, and they don't replace. I figure, I'm playing a character who wants to go heavy into the fungus tree, so it behooves me to go heavy on the regen. Without fungal growth, I have two basic regen options. My default starting infusion gives me 12/turn, and is a good choice for keeping my HP up in relatively easy conflicts. I also have a long-cooldown infusion that got dropped by a boss that gives me 36.68/turn, that I pull out when things get dicey. With Fungal growth, however, I start sprouting some issues. Now, when I fire off Nature's Touch, I get a regen effect at strength 6 that lasts 6 turns. I've found skullcleaver, which would be an *excellent* starting weapon for my character normally (built on the plan of "I heal huge amounts, have beefy armor, and deal tons of thorns damage, having an extra change to drain life every time I take a swing at people is great) except that now it means that making melee attacks might fill my regen slot with 2 hp/turn for 6 turns - which is certainly enough to see me dead if I'm depending on high-powered regen infusions for panic buttons.

So, suggestions...
- I assume that you're not willing to allow regen stacking because it becomes brokenly powerful. No problem. Given that...
- possibly give a special exception allowing the regen from Fungal Growth to stack with other regens.
- possibly allowing you to overwrite regens if the new one is more powerful than the old one.
- possibly make Fungal Growth do something else.

[lukep]

b41 looks like it will allow you to remove beneficial status effects at will. This is practically option three, but requires a bit more user input (but, allows better decision making).

[Sirrocco]

That is cool - though it does mean there's a real opportunity for abuse (as far as I can see it).

Suppose I have at least one point in each of the first three skills in the tree, and a weapon that packs a bit of drain damage. At least as I read things, every time I swing and hit, I'll drain. That counts as a heal, which triggers my (kind of pathetic) auto-regen. That, in turn, hands my back a point of equilibrium or few (which is fine) and about half of the turn I used to make the attack (which is not so fine). Next turn, I drop the regen (presumably as a free action) and I'm ready to do it again. So... maybe weapon drain shouldn't trigger Fungal Growth? Possibly drain healing in general shouldn't? It tends to be pretty piddling as heals go (since the idea is that you're getting it for free with your attacks) which suggests that it would be more of an annoyance than anything else for the people who were using the skills as intended, and painfully abusable for the people who wished to abuse them. Also, drain healing in general tends to be themes on the necromantic and defiler side, so it makes sense to me that the powers of natural regrowth wouldn't augment it in the same way they would other forms of healing.

[bricks]

There aren't any "drain damage" egos, if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think it's that big an issue. Setting a minimum heal amount would be an easy and universal way to prevent these minor effects from triggering.

Just some musing - it might be interesting to make a hard split between arcane and natural healing, and heal mods for both.

[Sirrocco]

Admittedly, I only saw it on a unique, so it may just be a niche abuse, but it still seems like the sort of thing one might wish to avoid - and I really dont' think it's something we want to leave as a trap for the next time someone decides to generate a bunch of interesting egos/uniques.

Side oddity - apparently the tooth of the maw heals you when you dig with it. At least, I assume that's why I was spawning regens off of that.

[Dekar]

The ring is the item in the game with lifeleech. If you have multiple damage types on your attack, the drain is calculated for each for, giving you a larger chance to proc it. I definitly see it as possbile abuse that should be prevented. Maybe giving a smaller speedboost while you have a regen effect (boring, not that noticeable ) or a large speedboost on every heal ( more like the original idea, often allows you a second turn before an enemy acts, unique idea ) instead of aquiring a regen effect is a better way to deal with the problem.

Digging might set you into Rest mode, where you will get additional heals after some turns to shorten rest time.Heals from resting trigger the fungus talent.