ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Everything about ToME
It is currently Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:57 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:49 am 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Snarvid wrote:
YSBMW's time opportunity cost


YSBMW what? Which cost?
Also, the point of YSBMW is it destroys any treat instantly so don't compare rotation of skills with it.
See that mountin? you can instantly slay it without it hitting you with all its skills.
Also, which 350% bonus damage you mean? It's 350% + 80% for every size over BIG.
So it's actually 350%+80%*5=750% and that's without +size on boots, which is very much possible with new AssLord trader.
Thus 800% weapon damage. Could LoN be comparable with it? I don't know because I never used it, but I somehow doubt it.
It's YSBMW with less powerful weapon vs just better weapon and no damage prodidgy.
If you can make YSBMW work, it wins in my opinion.

Snarvid wrote:
- I've never used it in game, but Giant Leap is also probably significantly better than YSBMW for a Writhing One. Instant speed vs YSBMW's 1 turn cost, solid damage, gets you into range, ditches stuns/pin/dazes, is inherently AoE so if you jump into the middle of a group then you'll whack everyone with Leap and therefore your tentacle's "hit that person plus all adjacent people" effect will start you off with good AoE damage and a healthy start to your Insanity gen.


For a practical and more balanced approach? Possibly yes.
But the possibility of one-turning almost every enemy is also very strong, because WO doesn't have that good defence, so he need to deal with threats quickly.


P.S. DG I''m glad you removed Sawrd because with it existense evey other sword was obsolete. No fun.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:34 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
Opportunity cost is a general term that means "the other things you could done with some resource instead of whatever you did with it." Time opportunity means "it takes a turn, what else could you have done with your turn?" You also have a large gear opportunity cost if you're speccing everything you can get into +size - not terrible for an Ogre given Ogrewielding, but not nothing. If you went AM, you might gear for a balanced mix of magic, strength, and crit mult instead, given that AM boosts your crit chance as well as your raw weapon damage, and then run the Black set, which is pretty good in any case but even better for AM users due to spell crit and spellpower boosts. I'm not saying that opportunity costs automatically invalidate YSBMW, but it seems like you're highly dedicated to expressing how powerful YSBMW can be (many times posting a specific damage assertion from a given weapon) without attempting to make the equivalent case for other options.

Giant Leap gives you a damaging gap closer at instant speed, which is faster than one-turning, and much faster than one-turning things that are committed to running away from you - if you spend X turns chasing the enemy to get your big hit and a Giant Leaper spends 0 turns doing so, your damage per round is divided by X compared to theirs. It also lets you save Carrion Feet for an escape in case you jump in to whack something and something even bigger gets line of sight on you (a fairly significant upgrade, given that this guide focuses on WO's lack of escape options and the AI changes in 1.6), and gets you the Insanity needed to Shed Skin (also instant speed) by tentacle-hitting a single enemy. This significantly increases your defenses because you get your shield up before anyone has a chance to react and can start building up pustules.

Again, this may be a Timmy v Spike issue. Doing a huge amount of damage is fun, no argument, but best = fun is the only way I can interpret your claim "of course YSBMW is by far one of the best prodigies for any class." I would reject the claim "of course taking YSBMW instead of any other prodigy provides the highest percent chance improvement to victory rates on Insanity for any class."


Last edited by Snarvid on Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:42 pm 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
What do you mean "if you went AM"?
Because I did pick up AM as first prodidgy.
Why it sounds as if those are mutually exclusive?

And my +size gear is just one belt that gives in addition to that like 40 phys power which is what I ned exactly.
There is no complications at all.

Snarvid wrote:
without attempting to make the equivalent case for other options.


Which other options? There is simple nothing comparable in damage with YSBMW! when your character is Ogre WO.

Snarvid wrote:
Giant Leap gives you a damaging gap closer at instant speed, which is faster than one-turning, and much faster than one-turning things that are committed to running away from you - if you spend X turns chasing the enemy to get your big hit and a Giant Leaper spends 0 turns doing so, your damage per round is divided by X compared to theirs.


It's damage is not enough to one-shot dangerous things. If it instant and doesn't take a turn it's good, and paired with Lash Out it almost could deliver same amount of damage. Almost - which is not enough.
Also things can't "run away" from me if I can simple one-shot them all.
And to run away from WO - lol, with 150 movement speed, Constriction and Carrion Feet, even not counting Movement Infusion... till this time - and my character is stuck in the book just before High Peak - nobody managed to ecape my grasp on a scale it was memorable.
Also, 6 infusion slots so you can get second MI (not advisable) and psichoport torque. Also assorted artefacts.
And sometimes you just have no place to reatreat, like demonic invasion portal.
Aslo, if you use Carrion Feet to get close to target you will get insanity you needed for Overgrowth which is what you need for one-shots.
The only way it could go bad if target has evasion.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Last edited by GlassGo on Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:52 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
Because you also said "AM can't provide those numbers, simple as that" and I'm talking about the different ways you would build and gear if you were dedicated to maxing AM's impact rather than YSBMW, and that was part of the initial exchange with Cathbald. If you like we can table AM and focus instead on Legacy of the Naloren and/or PES and/or Giant Leap vs YSBMW.

What +size belt do you have?

Everything you list as ways that you close gaps could, again, have been used for something else.


Last edited by Snarvid on Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:59 pm 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Why I should maxing impact of overall good prodidgy as AM is, but not as good as YSBMW, when I could get more from second than from first one?
It simple make no sense for me.
Belt gives +3 size. And I can get additional +1 from new Cults addon merchant from siding with AssLord, it should't be hard.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:03 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
Because YSBMW is one hit and AM is all hits, and therefore the latter helps more when there's more than one significant threat at a time.

(I'm going AFK, which I mention since this has apparently turned into a live debate.)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:18 pm 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Snarvid wrote:
Because YSBMW is one hit and AM is all hits, and therefore the latter helps more when there's more than one significant threat at a time.


But you need only one hit, and one-hitting the dangerous enemy is much better than all-hitting it multiple times, don't you think so?
Also, it sound like if taking YSBMW! is weakening character somehow, but it's not the case - it's not "strong all-hitting vs very strong one hit" it's "very strong one hit AND strong all-hitting (OK maybe not as strong as if you build aroung AM)".
What is better - to have all-hitting that allow to deal faster with not dangerous mobs, but takes more time and thus is more dangerous to deal with high hp/defence enemies, or capability to one-turn most dangerous enemies but to deal with crowd it take a bit longer?
I dunno, in my opinion the second is better.

Snarvid wrote:
Everything you list as ways that you close gaps could, again, have been used for something else.


I only had such situation once, where I met Forge Giant with its usual tons of pushing back talents from Fire/Wildfire and Shield skills. But I think in this case one Giant Leap doesn't change anything, since such enemy will push you hard no matter what.

Also I should probably note that what I said is for character with Tinker trees form escort, so you have Rocket Boots (of limited use untill you find steam regen artefact).
Without it, you definitely can have second MI and I dunno, you WtW bro with melee teleport skill, so it's even better in terms of mobility.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:21 am 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:48 am
Posts: 172
Quote:
But you need only one hit, and one-hitting the dangerous enemy is much better than all-hitting it multiple times, don't you think so?


Elandar/Argoniel/Atamathon/Linaniil/Hypostasis of Entropy footage? And please let me have my 5 sec of gatekeeping, and discard anything that isn't insane+ preemptively.

_________________
Wyrmic "The static pain" - easy training dummy kill
So, apparently, this is why we have Fixed cooldown talents


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:18 am 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Stuck in the book currently, for now.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:01 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
GlassGo wrote:
Snarvid wrote:
Because YSBMW is one hit and AM is all hits, and therefore the latter helps more when there's more than one significant threat at a time.


But you need only one hit, and one-hitting the dangerous enemy is much better than all-hitting it multiple times, don't you think so?
Also, it sound like if taking YSBMW! is weakening character somehow, but it's not the case - it's not "strong all-hitting vs very strong one hit" it's "very strong one hit AND strong all-hitting (OK maybe not as strong as if you build aroung AM)".
What is better - to have all-hitting that allow to deal faster with not dangerous mobs, but takes more time and thus is more dangerous to deal with high hp/defence enemies, or capability to one-turn most dangerous enemies but to deal with crowd it take a bit longer?
I dunno, in my opinion the second is better.


I don't know if you only need one hit - the numbers on the dummy aren't convincing to me as analogs of real game situations given armor, resistance, etc (I've averaged 54K per turn over the full duration of a Timeless Continuous Butchery on the dummy with a Shaloren Possessor in a Sawbutcher body with Razorlock). At significantly boosted size, it seems like you've got a single target attack capable of something roughly 2-3x as damaging as other active weapon attack options you have available to you without considering your other Prodigy. Many of the times that I run into serious trouble in the game it's not because I run not one but several tough enemies, either several at once or in rapid succession.

So if it's really just somewhere between 2-3x as good, anything that really boosts your raw weapon damage may take your already existing activated skills to comparable levels, while also boosting everything else. Legacy of the Naloren's has great weapon stats (power 195%, Str 140%, +20% crit, +4 to all stats, +10 luck, base damage boost off accuracy, 20 AP, 10% each proc chance spit poison, stunning blow, and silence) and it grant +0.3 Combat Training mastery. The Prodigy of the same name's gifts of 5 free levels of Exotic Weapons and the ability to learn Exotic Weapons up to max ranks of 10 (compare Weapon Mastery 5 at 1.0 mastery's 67% more weapon damage to Exotic Weapons 10 at 1.3 mastery giving 107% more weapon damage) makes its raw damage likely significantly higher than that of alternatives, so while it really matters what specific weapon we're comparing it to if it's 1.5-2 times as good in terms of raw damage it will have close to as good burst single target damage off Lash Out as a size-boosted character gets off YSBMW, plus better Lash Out AoE, Foul Convergence, and bump attack damage.

The way you're setting up your example of "not dangerous mobs" is putting your desired answer in the question, and the in-game answer depends very much on context. If you had, say, a Mage Hunter, a Bloated Horror, and a nasty unique in a single encounter, are the disablers "not dangerous" because their damage isn't comparable to the unique?

Quote:
Snarvid wrote:
Everything you list as ways that you close gaps could, again, have been used for something else.


I only had such situation once, where I met Forge Giant with its usual tons of pushing back talents from Fire/Wildfire and Shield skills. But I think in this case one Giant Leap doesn't change anything, since such enemy will push you hard no matter what.


I think that's too narrow an interpretation of opportunity cost - I did not just mean "that movement infusion could be used at a different time."

If you're got all WO gap closer and escape options + Rocket Boots and think you're at the optimal amount of movement options when you're packing an additional Movement Infusion, then with with Giant Leap (an additional movement option significantly faster than movement infusion) instead of YSBWM the WO would have the same number of movement options for one category point fewer. They could either a. grab a different infusion (maybe another injector to run Unstoppable Force Salve for its healmod synergy with Defiled Blood) or b. buy up something else with a category point (escort tree, tentacle mastery). Either of these could alter your proposition that “the possibility of one-turning almost every enemy is also very strong, because WO doesn't have that good defence, so he need to deal with threats quickly.” Add this to Giants Leap's ability to let enter melee, hit enemies, generate Insanity, and raise Shed Skin before enemies get to act at all (which gets you started on Defiled Blood faster), as well as e.g. Lightning Catcher instead of a size booster in your belt slot so that each of your instant speed AoE strikes that crit boost all your stats by 2% apiece up to 10%, and you're looking more realistically at what else you could do with the resources your build is using to facilitate YSBWM. I'm still not saying the Giant Leap options are automatically better, but the opportunity costs matter and should not be handwaved.

e: Updated sawbutcher damage after finding post, tried to clarify LoN points.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:46 pm 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Snarvid wrote:
Legacy of the Naloren's has great weapon stats (power 195%, Str 140%, +20% crit, +4 to all stats, +10 luck, base damage boost off accuracy, 20 AP, 10% each proc chance spit poison, stunning blow, and silence) and it grant +0.3 Combat Training mastery.


Good but nothing unique except Combat Training. Which I can get from cloak and I did find one with 0.4 mastery, but haven't used it yet.
Str 140% could matter a lot if we pumping Str with ICCTW with we woudn't. From procs only silence is theoreticaly good because in practice we will eliminate threat long before this proc ehh... procs?
In case of that Forge Giant it would be much faster and safer change gear to get phys.res.pen. which I did and like one-shot the threat.

Maybe LoN is best melee weapon in game - can't argue about that, it doesn't make YSBMW! bad prodidgy. It's still as good at one-shotting things, and crowd doesn't matter because WO have tools for dealing with crowd and dealing with dangerous things inside crowd.

The only thing I can think of is orc patros but I don't think LoN will save you there and make much difference there.
As an example - my WO stuck in book so I'm playing now Demonologist with 200 armor and like, for him Orc Prides were much more dangerous because he can't deal with threats fast, and relies only on his tankiness.
While for WO it was boring, very boring grind with zero damgerous situations.

That's why this

Snarvid wrote:
The way you're setting up your example of "not dangerous mobs" is putting your desired answer in the question, and the in-game answer depends very much on context. If you had, say, a Mage Hunter, a Bloated Horror, and a nasty unique in a single encounter, are the disablers "not dangerous" because their damage isn't comparable to the unique?


rather philosophical approach I consider as excessive here.
Things are simple - I had only one dangerous situation in late game - Forge Giant with Cleansing Flames, tons on pushing back talents and good phys damage and with 95/94 phys/darness resists.
Book of Horror was close to it but mainly because I had no idea what's there. Still the mobs there would not pose a lesser threat if I had LoN and that trident. the threat there wasn't "I can't killthem fast enough" it was "I can't withstand damage for long time" and nor Giant Leap not LoN wouldn't improve the situation.

Snarvid wrote:
If you're got all WO gap closer and escape options + Rocket Boots and think you're at the optimal amount of movement options when you're packing an additional Movement Infusion, then with with Giant Leap (an additional movement option significantly faster than movement infusion) instead of YSBWM the WO would have the same number of movement options for one category point fewer.


I got much more then simple movement options and you know that. :mrgreen:
It's not argument - why I need that cathegory point and what could be better use of it?
All amazing things that tinker skill trees have and which will be nerfed in the future I guess ^_^ - and I could spent it instead on what?
Worm-bro? I don't need it. Worms are what eating your body when you are dead, if you alive you don't need them, except for fishing.

And I dont' need another injector simply because you an't have three and that character already have two. )
And I don't have skill points for Unstoppabale Salve nor desire for it, because 6 turns of high saves isn't that promising if it's everything it can give. If it also has healmod (don't remember) I also don't need that If I can eliminate threat fast enough.

Snarvid wrote:
Add this to Giants Leap's ability to let enter melee, hit enemies, generate Insanity, and raise Shed Skin before enemies get to act at all (which gets you started on Defiled Blood faster), as well as e.g. Lightning Catcher instead of a size booster in your belt slot so that each of your instant speed AoE strikes that crit boost all your stats by 2% apiece up to 10%, and you're looking more realistically at what else you could do with the resources your build is using to facilitate YSBWM.


I'm not even using Defiled Blood just as Tongue Lick for who knows how long. The only reason to use it is to spend less time on cleansing weak enemies and for the sake of variety to reduce monotony. It's not really needed or crucal anymore. It was important at 20-30 lvl, was important in Dark Crypt, but later on - not so much.
Also, never had a problem with starting a fight - Constriction, Carrion Feet will do the job, and second one will generate enough resource to cast Overgrowth.
I don't know what you mean about Lightning Catcher - in my 1.5 it simply boost stats right? Like +10 to all stats and soem lightning damage. Was it changed in 1.6 or I'm reading its description wrong?

I think, I have a conclusion - Writhing One (and Doombringer who also get +2 size spell) could benefit form YSBMW! and it would probably be a potent mix if you use YSBMW! with LoN lol.
A deadly combination that could be on pair with Sawrd in terms of damage.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:38 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
Factual correction: You can hit effective talent 7 weapon mastery w/a 0.4 bonus cloak, 5*1.4. LoN gives 10*1.3, or 13 exotic mastery, and still has a cloak slot to allocate.

You note you’re having trouble withstanding damage for a long time. Defiled blood is not about the damage, it gives instant healing based on % of incoming damage amounts. Heal mod makes this better, Unstoppable Force gives a chunk of healmod (or it did, I haven’t checked in 1.6), and because it’s healing not resistance it stacks well other forms of resist. Should help you soak damage better.

Besides that, I don’t have anything else I think would advance this conversation in any meaningful way, our viewpoints are too different and we’re following different argument rulesets. GLHF.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:41 am 
Offline
Thalore

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:43 am
Posts: 168
I'm not too lazy to go through all your debates, so please remind me for what I missed. I said 20k and that was without Sawrd. with Sawrd 100k is possible.

You're never granted to one shot everything however much damage you can deal in a single weapon attack. You can miss, and the target can have super high armor, evasion, lightning rune, intuitive shot, repel, bone shield, storm shield… You name it.
Plus, how do you get that 750%? 2 size from Overgrowth, 1size from belt, 1 size from boot, any thing else?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:42 pm 
Offline
Spiderkin

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:42 pm
Posts: 592
I would summarize my contribution to the above re: AM and LoN vs. YSBMW as something like:

1. The relevant two factors in the output of an activated weapon-based talent are "roughly bump attack damage" (itself the output of a very complicated formula) * "talent multiplier." Call the former A and the latter B, with final damage product of C, for A*B=C.

2. My position is "if you increase A significantly then a lower B can yield a comparable C, while still increasing damage from everything else that looks at A, while increasing B does nothing when its talent is on cooldown. Because there's often more than one important thing to kill, sustained damage output via increased A matters."

E.g. 1*8 = 8, 2*4 = 8, 2.5*3=7.5, etc.

GG is obviously best suited to summarize their position, but I perceive it as something approximating "YSBMW's B is really, really big with a particular gear loadout and therefore it obviates most or all challenge in the game, so the sustained output generated by a larger A is not relevant once the challenging stuff has been killed."

I made a number of arguments about the opportunity costs of gearing towards this, but this did not create a change I could notice in our conversation (or at least, they incurred an additional cloak opportunity cost in the last post I responded to). At which point I realized a. that this conversation was not going to be satisfying for me unless we ended up accounting for every build component and gear slot so that all opportunity costs would be explicit and visible to all parties and b. I didn't care enough to do that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:13 pm 
Offline
Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 1:21 pm
Posts: 687
Location: From Russia with atchoum!
Snarvid wrote:
Factual correction: You can hit effective talent 7 weapon mastery w/a 0.4 bonus cloak, 5*1.4. LoN gives 10*1.3, or 13 exotic mastery, and still has a cloak slot to allocate.

You note you’re having trouble withstanding damage for a long time. Defiled blood is not about the damage, it gives instant healing based on % of incoming damage amounts. Heal mod makes this better, Unstoppable Force gives a chunk of healmod (or it did, I haven’t checked in 1.6), and because it’s healing not resistance it stacks well other forms of resist. Should help you soak damage better.


You are right, but I simply have no such gear and preferred to focus on offence. I always start a fight with max res.all available (salve+infusion), but that's not enough for prolonged fights vs someone with good damage potential (as character had 50 armor only) and in case someone could remove my buffs.

helminthauge wrote:
You can miss, and the target can have super high armor, evasion, lightning rune, intuitive shot, repel, bone shield, storm shield… You name it.
Plus, how do you get that 750%? 2 size from Overgrowth, 1size from belt, 1 size from boot, any thing else?


You can miss is the second threat besides capped phys/darkness res.
That's why I was looking for that helmet with shout that cancel all evasion - ypu really need it.
Sawrd somehow fix this as there are 4-5 hits with it, but not completely.
High armor doesn't matter - Grushnak had 110/100 armor/hardiness with 11 K hp and went down in single hit.
I don't think things in game can have more then 150 armor - not on Insane at aleast.

You missed +3 size from belt. Didn't have the boots.

_________________
English isn't my native language.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group