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Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=49911
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Author:  Snarvid [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Hey all,

Someone asked this question on Steam and was sketched out by the security warning Steam gives when linking to this site, so I'll ask it for them and repost it there.

Do we still have to reapply Sustained spells after adding talent points to them on level up? Log still says yes, but did the changes to snapshotting make this a non-issue, or does that only apply to changes in attributes (stats, power, etc.) and not to talent levels?

Thanks!

Author:  Forgpelsznart [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Hey, it was me :P

Basically the log says something like "if sustained spells are affected by stats you changed you have to reapply them for it take effect"
And then below it says:
"x deactivated;
x activated"
for each sustain I had on (x)

a contradictory message to me

Author:  Snarvid [ Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Welcome to the forums!

Author:  Zizzo [ Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Forgpelsznart wrote:
Basically the log says something like "if sustained spells are affected by stats you changed you have to reapply them for it take effect"
And then below it says:
"x deactivated;
x activated"
for each sustain I had on (x)

a contradictory message to me

…? The way that's always worked in my experience is that that warning is for active sustains that can't be automatically "bounced" by the leveup dialog, because de-/re-activating the sustain would have side effects (Mindslayer auras, for instance). The levelup dialog will warn about those if you have any, so that you can decide when (or if) to bounce them "manually", and then automatically bounce all your other active sustains that can safely be automatically bounced.

Snarvid wrote:
Do we still have to reapply Sustained spells after adding talent points to them on level up? Log still says yes, but did the changes to snapshotting make this a non-issue, or does that only apply to changes in attributes (stats, power, etc.) and not to talent levels?

[sound F/X: source diving] On a preliminary scan, it looks like sustained talents that specifically say they scale with a stat generally have callbackOnStatChange() methods that will recompute their effects when your stats change (that doesn't seem to cover sustains that scale indirectly with stats, though, like scaling with Mindpower). There doesn't appear to be a callback for talent level changed, so yeah, those changes presumably still require the auto-bounce by the levelup dialog.

As for "unbounceable" sustains… (shrug) in a future version, I suppose they could be handled by adding an extra method to the talent definition, like recompute() or bounce(), whose job is to do the re-computation that the levelup dialog needs without triggering de-/re-activation side effects. That might be a bit much of a change at this late stage of the beta, though.

Author:  Forgpelsznart [ Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

so to make sure I understand all the technobabble being new to the game and dumb and all (haven't played any class apart from arcane blade as of yet so not much experience with talents outside that class) - I don't have to worry about that, right? IF i had sustains that required my additional attention there would have been a warning specific to those sustains?

Author:  Snarvid [ Mon Oct 07, 2019 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Thanks Zizzo!

Forgpelsznart - I don't know. Due to the new snapshotting rules it shouldn't be an issue for levelups where the only relevant change to your character was stats, but it could be that if you, for example, put talent points in Arcane Combat, you would need to cycle it off and on again before the increased proc chance would kick in.

Author:  Zizzo [ Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Forgpelsznart wrote:
so to make sure I understand all the technobabble being new to the game and dumb and all (haven't played any class apart from arcane blade as of yet so not much experience with talents outside that class) - I don't have to worry about that, right? IF i had sustains that required my additional attention there would have been a warning specific to those sustains?

Right: the levelup dialog will automatically bounce (deactivate/reactivate) any sustains that it can, in order to do any necessary recomputations for stat/talent level changes, and will warn you about any sustains that it can't bounce. For Arcane Blades in particular, IIRC Arcane Combat is one of the sustains that the levelup dialog can't auto-bounce, because activating that sustain has a side effect (bringing up the "choose which spell to auto-trigger" dialog).

Author:  Forgpelsznart [ Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Yeah I somehow missed the part of the log that mentions Arcane Combat - that's the talent that needs to be readjusted manually.

This however begs another question - do I have to reapply sustains each time I equip an item that affects stats on which those sustains depend? 'Cause this doesn't happen automatically.

Author:  Zizzo [ Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Snapshotting vs. re-applying Sustains on level up

Forgpelsznart wrote:
This however begs another question - do I have to reapply sustains each time I equip an item that affects stats on which those sustains depend? 'Cause this doesn't happen automatically.

[sound F/X: source diving] I don't think so. AFAICT stat changes from equipment go through the engine's temporary-values infrastructure, which tickles Actor:onStatChange(), so any talent with a callbackOnStatChange() callback should be recomputed as needed.

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