ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal
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Revamped Wyrmic
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=49168
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Author:  anonymous000 [ Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Recaiden wrote:
I think they need more advanced tree options. They technically have 4, but you will take at most 1 weapon style, and Prismatic is near-mandatory. I'd like for them to have an option that competes with Prismatic, where you only pick a single element and use it all game.


+1 to this.

I feel the Aspects feel a lot more distinct than before. I guess that has to do with untying the aspects against particular talents, so two different aspects become truly different at all times rather than only when using a particular talent. But nonetheless since the passives / sustains would always apply no matter which primary aspect I am in, there is no reason for me to choose a weaker aspect (damage/reliability wise) as my primary aspect unless an ememy is more vulnerable to that damage type.

Taking Storm/Venom wyrmic as an example, the average damage of Storm aspect is not far off, with no chance to be shrugged off and also not applied over a few turns. So naturally I would choose Storm as the primary aspect and just turn the Venom sustain on. This applies to all combinations and convinces me the need to have a Focus tree so that you could be motivated to take some of the weaker aspects like Acid as the primary one.

Btw, Excruciate is one of the talents that I liked in the previous version, it pairs very well with the poison damage you deal and do involve some decision making, it could be made into the Focus Tree.



Recaiden wrote:
I have some interest in adding BlinkWyrm and Spire Dragon talents; as they're weird dragon types already in game that a wyrmic doesn't represent.


I have this Idea for a Blink Wyrm Aspect that enables you to alter space to enhance your physical attacks
- TL1: Your routine bump attack has an extra +1 range
- TL2: Devour becomes a beam attack
- TL4: Claw becomes a ball shaped attack
- TL5: Overwhelm becomes a projectile
- The damage is spread out over 3 turns doing 50%, 30% and 20% each in temporal damage

Recaiden wrote:
Apex Predator 1 and 4 are bland and don't really have any decision-making.
Draconic Body 3 is bland.


Let me just throw some idea around, see if they are useful?

- Draconic Body 3 would also transfer the also let it transfer the debuff to a target by the reduced duration
- Apex Predator:
-- You learn how to place zone objects like antimagic bush, fell aura, etc. to your advantage in hunting lessor creatures. Duration scales with talent level
-- Apply a “Hunted” status to an enemy, hunted enemies will have their saves reduced, and you will always know their position
-- I actually think Confounding Roar could be left out as Wyrmic already has so many ways to apply status effects

Recaiden wrote:
Walls always look like ice cubes.


I think it is ok to keep it as Ice Wall as it brings some variety. Sometimes I want to see enemies frozen, both from strategic perspective and that always inflicting a single status effect gets boring after a while

----------------
And some comments to individual talents:
- Elemental Crash’s damage scales pretty bad, and the long cooldown does not seem to be justified
- Draconic Strikes: You would not want to use this. When you are low on life often the only sensible thing to do is to escape to take regen infusion, rather than to continue any offensives
- Prismatic Blood: I recommend this to be changed to limit the total number of points you could invest into the Draconic Aspects, starting with 6 points at TL1. Even if you want to concentrate on a single aspect it is necessary to invest in a backup aspect

Author:  anonymous000 [ Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Is this project abandoned? I honestly believe if this class is a little bit more polished it could be a good replacement to the original wyrmic :roll:

Author:  Recaiden [ Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

It's not abandoned! I just haven't had a lot of time to work on it (or even play ToM'E) recently.
I'm almost done with my current idea for element-Focused tree, but it's not quite in a releasable state of polish.

Author:  Recaiden [ Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Only took me three or four months!

I've moved back to a 1-tree-per-element design. But they're unusual trees. You can only learn 1, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th abilities are locked.

Some elements I had more than one idea for, and separating out quality skills like Ice Wall, Burrow, and Dissolution into separate categories feels like a better power progression.

You start out with Energy, Combat, and Body as your base skills, and can get 1 talent from 1 element.
With a Category Point you can unlock Prismatic Dragon, which basically improves your core gameplay with speed, damage, respen, resists. It's also needed to get multiple elements which you may want for certain enemies (although Wyrmic will generally be Physical + Element anyway, that element could be 'More Physical').
OR you can unlock weirder elemental abilities.

Fire is in a sense the default, and It encourages you to throw yourself into melee and hit people a lot. It likes on-hits because it gives you extra fire attacks.

Cold is about defense. More resists, more armor, a little burst defense, and the classic ice wall. (which I plan to nerf because wall creation is outrageous).

Lightning does LOTS of DAMAGE. Sometimes. At Random. In the right circumstances.

Sand does battlefield control and mobility. It's also focused on powerful Weapon attacks. Bring a 2-Hander.

Acid is for deactivating enemy sustains, and has a bit of countering melee combatants. But hopefully the other talents have some use too, but not too much, because Dissolution is really powerful.

Venom is Damage over Time, progressively weakening enemies. It goes well with daggers and mindstars.

Author:  nsrr [ Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

The new element system is interesting, but a little confusing. It takes two category points to go multi-elemental or even to advance in the first element you select? Seems like a lot. There's a lot of strong utility to be had, but I feel like I should at least be able to get the tier 2-4 talents from the first element without a cat point. Maybe I'm confused, though; haven't made it far enough yet to actually try it.

One of the descriptions in the tier 2 elemental talents doesn't match all the others, I think it was Acid.

Descriptions for damage from flame and venom are confusing. In both cases they state a percentage of the damage will be dealt at once and another percentage will be dealt over a number of turns. In both cases, they percentages add up to more than 100.

I like the spread of mind power vs physical power, seems like they are balanced out pretty evenly. My one minor gripe is that you don't start with mindstars in your inventory. I really wanted to go all out on mind power (still plan to) and having a starter set would be nice. That's probably just standard Wrymic, but it would be easy enough to change, and I don't think that what amounts to a tiny bit of money would unbalance things very much if you choose to just stick with the axe. Not a deal breaker, of course, but it would be a nice convience.

Author:  anonymous000 [ Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I like this version a lot! The revamped wyrmic is OP but each aspect feels truly different from each other, here's my comment about the trees:

- Sand: I love this tree, each of the talents are generally useful and they synergize with each other very well

- Venom: I like this mainly due to Excruciate. Toxic Shock is too strong though

- Acid: Indeed Dissolution is very strong, but is the damage is strangely low. If the point of the talent is about removing sustain only then maybe we can do without the damage, because its damage just looks odd. As for Softening Aura, since Wyrmic is primarily a melee class I don't find it to be very useful, I think it might be more useful if it also slows down projectile

- Storm: In the previous iterations Storm is the strongest primary element due to higher average damage and passive static field, and it is made even stronger with Storm Surge. Storm Aspect is just too good a passive bonus, I think it should be replaced with Storm Surge, and at the same time the average damage of Lightning damage and Storm Surge need to be toned down. Maybe just merge the static field with Tornado.

- Ice: This tree has potential to be good but it is just too weak. The damage reduction of Frozen Heart reminds me of Forge Shield. The description of Gathering Avalanche is misleading as I thought it would reduce the damage taken. Its disarm is odd because in principle I would want the enemy to deal high damage so I could have a big retaliation attack. I think the number in both talents needs to be vastly increased. Gathering Avalanche should also reduce incoming damage by a high percentage. Frozen Heart should be made as an active, sticking this with a counterstrike effect would also fit the theme

- Fire: It is strong, but it is the most boring talent tree among all other trees. The theme makes sense but the talents are mostly very strong passives that involves no tactical decisions

Author:  nsrr [ Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I took Ice first and have not found it weak at all. Nevermind anything else, just Ice Aspect is great. It may depend on build, though. I went all Mindpower and Draconic Energy, so everything is frozen all the time. Not taking any damage is pretty OP. Ice Wall is (still) fantastic, and honestly anything else in the tree is filler. Acid is also really strong. Dissolution is great, everything else is filler, and Disarm is amazing against any weapon class, which is a majority of the most dangerous classes. Edit: I forgot about Scour Clean. Also amazing.

Flame is good and I would have taken that over Ice if I was going for a melee build. Sand looks good, but my build fights at range and I have Racing Wings, so more mobility and terrain control is not really needed. Probably good for melee. Venom is... eh. Crippling Poison is pretty good, but it's not as hard of a lock down as freeze, stun, daze, disarm or even blind, so it doesn't really compete as an aspect, and the tree itself doesn't have anything else useful enough to make it worthwhile, imho. Lightning might be good in combination with Fire or Ice, but daze is not fantastic by itself, and damage is inconsistent. Without Lightning Speed, it doesn't have much to offer.

Edit: I went Cornac so I could go Prismatic and pick up advanced aspect talents both at level 10, for what it's worth.

Edit 2: Lashing Tail seems really odd. Directly applying a cross-tier seems strange in the first place, and Off Balance isn't really that great anyway. I'd suggest a different debuff. Something to reduce crit chance might be nice, or maybe make the enemy lose a portion of a turn. Just a couple random ideas off the top of my head.

Author:  Recaiden [ Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I've uploaded a version that fixes Prismatic Fury, as well as some small tweaks.

nsrr wrote:
One of the descriptions in the tier 2 elemental talents doesn't match all the others, I think it was Acid.


It was venom. It's been fixed, thank you.

nsrr wrote:
Descriptions for damage from flame and venom are confusing. In both cases they state a percentage of the damage will be dealt at once and another percentage will be dealt over a number of turns. In both cases, they percentages add up to more than 100.


Changed the descriptions to hopefully be clearer.

nsrr wrote:
I like the spread of mind power vs physical power, seems like they are balanced out pretty evenly. My one minor gripe is that you don't start with mindstars in your inventory. I really wanted to go all out on mind power (still plan to) and having a starter set would be nice.


Good idea! They now start with a pair of mindstars in their alternate weapon set.

anonymous000 wrote:
- Acid: Indeed Dissolution is very strong, but is the damage is strangely low. If the point of the talent is about removing sustain only then maybe we can do without the damage, because its damage just looks odd.
Turns out the damage calculation there was broken, it should do a little more now.

anonymous000 wrote:
- Storm: In the previous iterations Storm is the strongest primary element due to higher average damage and passive static field, and it is made even stronger with Storm Surge. Storm Aspect is just too good a passive bonus, I think it should be replaced with Storm Surge, and at the same time the average damage of Lightning damage and Storm Surge need to be toned down. Maybe just merge the static field with Tornado.


I've turned down the lightning damage and the scaling on Storm Surge.
I do want to keep that static effect in some form. Moving it to tornado would leave Storm not helping you at all against single targets early on.

anonymous000 wrote:
- Ice: This tree has potential to be good but it is just too weak. The damage reduction of Frozen Heart reminds me of Forge Shield. The description of Gathering Avalanche is misleading as I thought it would reduce the damage taken. Its disarm is odd because in principle I would want the enemy to deal high damage so I could have a big retaliation attack. I think the number in both talents needs to be vastly increased. Gathering Avalanche should also reduce incoming damage by a high percentage. Frozen Heart should be made as an active, sticking this with a counterstrike effect would also fit the them.


Avalanche does reduce the damage taken, it just wasn't showing up in the log until now!
I'll look at moving/removing the disarm, since it does mean 'less damage to absorb'

anonymous000 wrote:
- Fire: It is strong, but it is the most boring talent tree among all other trees. The theme makes sense but the talents are mostly very strong passives that involves no tactical decisions


That's pretty much what I was hoping for.

Author:  anonymous000 [ Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I have another try for the Venom Drake tree:

- The naming of the poison is confusing: Poison that causes talent failure and normal Deadly Poison both shows up as Deadly Poison, this makes me having to inspect the enemy to check whether the talent failure sticks

- Poison stack seems to be broken:
-----After poison that causes talent failure (say this is 'debuffing poison') is applied, then the talent failure is removed when Elemental Spray hits. The remaining Deadly Poison is the routine Deadly Poison that brings no debuff
-----Poison damage from melee attacks do not seem to stack
-----etc.

- So I recommend:
-----Having the talent failure as a standalone debuff (like Freeze to Ice damage) instead of tying it into the poison damage
-----When deadly poison is applied again, the pre-existing deadly poison will deal all damage at once

- Other than the above:
-----For Venomous Strikes, Cunning increases the duration of the poison but not really the on hit damage
-----I revert my original judgment, Toxic Shock is good and I don't find it particular strong later on. But that maybe because the poison stack does not work well
-----I think the description of the damage is more confusing than before, based on the current description it means (100+25*0.4) = 110% applied upfront and 25*0.6 = 15% applied in the next 3 turns

And since I have tested this mod for a couple times I notice the early games are so samey because all T1 in the aspect trees are passives (Icy Armor and Venomous Strikes are technically sustains, but they work like passives). Making them passives/sustains that require some tactical decisions would bring some variety to early games. For example, copying Apply Poisons + Vile Poisons to replace Venomous Strikes would bring more tactical depth

Author:  Amakthel [ Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I had a recurring bug show up whenever I tried to mouse over the Prismatic Burst talent. It occurred when the game tried to call getCost, on line 223 of prismatic.lua. I think the problem is that ToME doesn't like getTalentCooldown, so I tried replacing it with t.cooldown, and that seemed to work. I also had some problems with Racing Wings, whenever I used the talent the game would crash, and say that it had some problems trying to set the all-resist on line 27 of effects.lua. I hope this is helpful!

Author:  Recaiden [ Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Thank you for that very precise bug report!
Last second-changes on my part.
A version with fixes is up.

Author:  Recaiden [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Accidentally left an old method in Wyrmic Guile that was stopping it from functioning.
Fixed in 0.5.7.

Author:  smithfield [ Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Been playing w/ this a bit. I've yet to get very far w/ the vanilla wyrmic and so I had to try yours and then go back and try vanilla again. I like the direction that you are moving in at this point.

Vanilla wyrmic, for me the attraction and mystery of the class is the mix and match nature. You basically get to be parts of any of the dragons that you fancy. That's an aspect worth keeping or at least considering.

Yours forces one to focus at the outset, and although, w/ vanilla, I enjoy the freedom, here I enjoy the focus. I'm trying to push into the 20s or 30s to see what these things can really do, but its slow going.

Overall this is a good experiment. I just started an ice wyrmic and getting to turn the tables and freeze 'them' every 3 turns is very entertaining. I do believe that the current design is going to make me think of this class as the 'speed' class. I have the Silk Current, and I dropped 5 into Racing Wings from the start and now I am using 168% movement speed to bully the T1 levels.

I have one request, could you remove the blanks folder from /overload/gfx/talents and reduce all of the talent pngs to 64x64 px ? This is all the t4 engine really makes use of, but opengl will load these huge files and do expensive interpolations with them. I use older hardware exclusively and these larger files produce noticeable slowing and other effects.

Author:  Recaiden [ Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

I'm glad you like it.

I will certainly pre-shrink the talent icons in the next version.

They can move pretty fast (as can vanilla wyrmics), but I wouldn't usually recommend putting more than 4 points into Racing Wings. And I almost certainly recommend wearing heavy armor. Even with Scaled Skin, Silk Current is not going to keep up!

0.5.8

Fixed the tooltip bug in venom.
Made ice walls summons instead of terrain. We all know Ice Wall was way too good.
Made Scaled Skin stronger if you're in light armor
Made icons small.

Author:  Laughmore [ Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Revamped Wyrmic

Hi!

ToME auto-updated the addon to 0.5.8 and when my character is using talents or attacking (2 sustains on), ToME is throwing Lua error after Lua error.

I was able to roll back to 0.5.7 and use the same talents without error. Letting ToME update back to 0.5.8 automatically brought the errors back.

I tried creating a new character, meaning I only had Element Spray and Devour, but the errors didn't occur then (both Mountain Troll addon and Cornac)

A few of the errors:

Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113: zttempt to index local 'ed' (a nil value)
At [C]:-1__index
At /engine/interace/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113 setEffect
At /data-revamped-wyrmic/damage_types.lua:381 projector
At /engine/M<ap.lua:1244 processEffects
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1712 onTurn
At /engine/GameEnergyBased.lua:90 tick
At /engine/GameTurnBase.lua:51 tick
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1489


Lua Error: /engine/interface/GameTargeting.lua:133: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:162: /engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113: attempt to index local 'ed' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
/engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113: in function 'setEffect'
/data-revamped-wyrmic/damage_types.lua:381: in function 'projector'
/engine/interface/ActorProject.lua:219: in function 'project'
/data-revamped-wyrmic/talents/gifts/draconic-energy.lua:37: in function
</data-revamped-wyrmic/talents/gifts/draconic-energy.lua:25>
[C]: in function 'xpcall'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:160: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:148>
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 error
At /engine/interface/GameTargeting.lua:133 fct
At /engine/interface/GameTargeting.lua:139 targetMode
At /engine/interface/GameTargeting.lua:208 accept
At /engine/interface/GameTargeting.lua:215 fct
At /engine/interface/PlayerHotkeys.lua:317
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:230


Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:322: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:295:
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:162: /engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113:
attempt to index local 'ed' (a nil value)
stack traceback
/engine/interface/ActorTemporaryEffects.lua:113: in function 'setEffect'
/data-revamped-wyrmic/talents/gifts/aspect-venom.lua:56 in function 'ApplyPoisons'
/data-revamped-wyrmic/talents/gifts/aspect-venom.lua:70 in function
</data-revamped-wyrmic/talents/gifts/aspect-venom.lua:64>
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:1037: in function 'callTalent'
/mod/class/Actor.lua:5241: in function 'fireTalentCheck'
/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:1127: in function 'attackTargetHitProcs'
/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:641: in function 'attackTargetWith'
/mod/addons/cults/superload/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:30: in function
'attackTargetWith'
/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:184: in funciton 'attackTarget'
/data/talents/misc/misc.lua:75: in function </data/talents/misc/misc.lua:54>
[C]: in function 'xpcall'
/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:160: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:149>
At [C]:-1
At [C]:-1 error

From my character's desc.lua:
addons = {'items-vault', 'mountaintroll', 'possessors', 'Better-sounds-mod', 'easy_map_v2', 'ashes-urhrok', 'convenient-digging', 'cults', 'orcs', 'revamped-wyrmic', 'compare'}

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