ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:18 am 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:41 pm
Posts: 136
Hello everyone.
This addon introduces an afflicted/celestial hybrid class, the Fallen.
You can download it here: https://te4.org/games/addons/tome/classfallen

This class is originally inspired by the enemies John and Aluin.

Please report any bugs you find; I'll try to fix them.

Fallen have a mix of old and new trees.
Class
Celestial Combat
Shadows
Gloom (locked, level 0)
Bloodstained: By making bloody attacks, increase your positive energy.
Darkside: Consume positive energy for attacks and mobility.
Shadows of Suffering (locked, level 10): Use your shadows for defense and control.
Crimson Templar (locked, level 10): Mental abilities that manipulate bleeding and the battlefield
Black Sun (locked, level 10): Celestial attacks using gravity.

Generic
Celestial Light
Cursed Aura
Self-Hatred: Spend life for Hate and power.
Dirges: Useful songs in the style of Chants and Hymns.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:54 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 245
Initial feedback (based on a round of Arena):
- Dirge of Famine grants resistance to all damage, but only specifies so in its own description, not in the Dirge Acolyte description.
- Self-Harm can make bleeding immune targets bleed (and that's good, because skeletons/whitehooves need hate generation)
- Did they change the Cursed Aura check or did you manually add it? I remember that requiring Cursed Body.
- Blood Rush goes through walls. Is that intended?
- The shadow changes feel very natural - I didn't even notice that my shadows had different talents at first.
- Between Dirge of Famine and Shadow Guardians granting 28% resistance to all damage, as well as the reduction from Dirge Nihilist, Sanctuary and Self-Judgement, you feel very tanky.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 7:59 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:43 pm
Posts: 245
Important: Despite the category name being Cursed/Shadows, Umbraphage doesn't boost the talent mastery of Fallen's Shadows category.

EDIT: Also, if you gain both Cursed/Shadows categories, you only summon shadows from the original one (if both Call Shadows are active). Focus Shadows will summon shadows from the tree it originates from.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:58 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 888
Played it up to Weirdling Beast on Insane/RL. Felt pretty much unkillable till then, but WB being able to repeatedly strip sustains then hammer you with 500 soul rots was too much.

Bugs
- Brutalize's tooltip damage doesn't match the damage dealt (0.3,0.6 in tooltip, 1,1.5 in action)
- Lunacy didn't seem to work for me - might just be that my spellpower/mindpower was high enough that it didn't give a bonus, but felt odd. Worth double checking that I think.
- Blood Rush seems to apply the bleed even if you miss, which feels odd.
- Not a bug, but I'd probably recommend changing new-Shadows to instead superload the old category. Have it keep the same talents, but if you're a Fallen, if/else the description and action to give your shadows the new talents. Means you can use mastery items correctly etc as per Erenion's comment.

Feedback
I enjoyed the class, lots of neat things. But I think it's too tanky, and Shadows are too good. Regular Doomed shadows are fantastic and these seem even stronger. The most noticeable thing was their spells. The darkness nuke hit reasonably hard, but the light spell was incredibly good - I'd sometimes be getting 200-300 damage a turn in an AoE just from that, putting my actual melee attacks to shame. Aside from the stun and rush, I rarely bothered attacking, as Shadows would just annihilate anything (which is why WB was a hard counter). This is a shame, as the hate/positive resources, the bleed synergy and the like would make for an interesting melee, but at the moment Shadows outstrip anything you can personally do, so you're better off just building for defense and letting them carry you, like an even tankier Doomed.
Self-Judgement is probably the biggest defensive effect of the class - plenty of times I'd see a hit for 90% of my life turn into a much more manageable bleed. It might be better to have it instead convert a % of the hit rather than all of it perhaps? It's probably a case of just needing numbers tuning down. Placing more of the defense into stuff that triggers from bleeding or spending positive/hate might be a good idea. With nerfed Shadows, it'd mean you're more encouraged to get up close and hit stuff to maximize your defense, as opposed to hanging back and letting Gloom/Shadows deal with everything.
Still, a fun, polished class. Good job.

edit: Blood Bath doesn't seem to work. Also, Rosebloom has a fair few typos.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:41 pm
Posts: 136
I've uploaded a new version of the addon with the following changes:

0.1.3
  • Reduced the damage Shadows do with their spells.
  • Fixed some typos.
  • Blood Rush only applies a bleed if you hit.
  • Brutalize does the advertised amount of damage.
  • Lunacy is working again.
  • Blood Bath is triggering at the right time.
  • Dirge of Famine no longer grants resistance.
  • Self-Judgement lets more damage slip through on big hits.
  • Items that grant Shadows mastery also apply to Fallen’s Solar-Shadows

Erenion wrote:
- Dirge of Famine grants resistance to all damage, but only specifies so in its own description, not in the Dirge Acolyte description.
- Self-Harm can make bleeding immune targets bleed (and that's good, because skeletons/whitehooves need hate generation)
- Did they change the Cursed Aura check or did you manually add it? I remember that requiring Cursed Body.
- Blood Rush goes through walls. Is that intended?
- The shadow changes feel very natural - I didn't even notice that my shadows had different talents at first.
- Between Dirge of Famine and Shadow Guardians granting 28% resistance to all damage, as well as the reduction from Dirge Nihilist, Sanctuary and Self-Judgement, you feel very tanky.

Noted in the description that Self-harm goes through immunity.
The Cursed Aura check is added (secretly of course) to the first Dirge talent.
It is intended Blood Rush can go through walls (because Blindside could go through walls).

Shadow's Moonlight spell is a fair bit down, their Light spell is way down. They may need to get even weaker in the future.
The two shadows trees remain separate for the moment, because it was faster to just update unique items. I will look into integrating it more with the original tree later.
I'll consider how to make the class more active and vulnerable and less shadow-reliant, for a future update.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Posts: 888
Code:
...
    local diminishment = math.min((
          self:getTalentLevelRaw(self.T_FLN_BLOODSTINED_RUSH)
        + self:getTalentLevelRaw(self.T_FLN_BLOODSTINED_FURY)
        + self:getTalentLevelRaw(self.T_FLN_BLOODSTINED_BATH)
        + self:getTalentLevelRaw(self.T_FLN_BLOODSTINED_THIRST))*2, 90)
    eff.power = eff.power * (100-diminishment) / 100
      end
   end,
   info = function(self, t)
      return ([[Reduces the damage you take from bleeds]]):
    format()
   end,
}

newTalent{
   name = "Blood Rush", short_name = "FLN_BLOODSTAINED_RUSH",
...


Looks like your bleed reduction has a typo in the call.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:05 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:41 pm
Posts: 136
Uploaded version 0.1.4
  • Fix the typo in bleed reduction
  • Workaround for the Umbral Razor bug that vectorinox ran into.
  • Just-in-case fix for a potential interaction between Self-Destruction and effect duration things

Class still tanky, Shield dirge still too mujch uptime. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:30 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
Posts: 743
Tested through T2, kept alt SWL for last because - alt SWL and died in it so I was right :p

Class deals a ton of damage. If something bleed it dies in 3 turns top. You're pretty safe because shadows take aggro, but when they die/lose aggro you're not that tanky.

Couple notes on Blood Rush :
  • It's a tp but can't be used while pinned, annoying.
  • It would be nice if it prioritise the closest spot when you target an enemy rather than a random spot.
  • The cd mechanic with the mark is GREAT
  • You can use it on an enemy that is fully surrounded, it'll go on cd, you'll lose a turn, you'll move to a random spot in range 2 of the enemy, and nothing will happen to the enemy.
  • You can use it on an enemy in melee that is otherwise fully surrounded, you'll tp away, lose a turn, nothing will happen to the enemy.

Blood Bath doesn't deal X% of the attack over 5 turns, but X% of the attack per turn for 5 turns. Which lead me to get size matter from a bleed tick after a single attack on the shade at level 12. Fun times. Also the bleed from blood bath double dip in inc_dam, which is even more damage ^^

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I write guides and make addons too now, apparently

You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!

Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:50 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:41 pm
Posts: 136
New version 0.2.0 uploaded.
  • Blood Rush doesn’t move you if already adjacent, it just attacks.
  • Blood Rush doesn’t cast if there is nowhere to Teleport to.
  • Blood Bath damage-per-turn calculation fixed.

  • Lower numbers on Blood Fury and Blood Bath
  • Worse range scaling on Final Sunbeam
  • Crimson Templar uses Spellpower and magic instead of Mindpower and willpower.
  • Cooldown on Dirge of Pestilence so it can’t be continually refreshed.
  • Increased resource costs.
  • Lower cooldown on Flee The Sun
  • Lowered hate gain from Self-Harm.
  • Class preview uses Dirge visuals instead of Chant visuals. :wink:

  • Shadow Paladins no longer lower enemy damage, but feed you Hate if you attack the same target..
  • Shadow Anorithils require you to hit the target to trigger the AoE light damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:44 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:28 am
Posts: 83
Played a bit. Died. Had fun. Will probably play some more eventually. Assorted notes:

-Blood Fury still seems a bit overpowered. It should definitely have a fixed cooldown; I haven't tested it (was playing skeleton lol rip), but using Drem Frenzy to use level 5 Blood Fury twice in a row should let you multiply the damage of any given Bleed effect by 19.18 times which should be enough to liquefy just about anything in a couple of turns. If you give it a fixed cooldown you could make Self-Destruction still affect it specifically as a special case, since I think that synergy is intended.
-It'd be nice QoL if Self-Destruction turned off automatically out of combat.
-I loved the lil flavour blurbs in the abilities
-There are some missing periods in text which were a bit jarring
-Why not just refer to the shadows as Lomea consistently? It'd make Lomea Anorithils seem less out of left field and would make it immediately clear that the tree is NOT the same as Doomed's
-It'd be nice QoL if the class's own bleed effects simply multiplied the power of their bleed procs by the target's resistance rather than having it be % chance
-It took me a second to understand what Shadowed Memories is supposed to be for and I'm still not 100% sure I get it
-The conventions used to indicate scaling, save checks, et cetera are pretty different from basegame which annoyed me more than it probably should
-Blood Rush makes cleaning up trivial enemies about 200% less tedious. I love it.
-Dirge Intoner's damage scales off of Mindpower despite it being a Magic tree which is a bit awkward

You've managed to combine my two favorite classes with a class I had no interest in and make something pretty awesome. Stacking and multiplying bleeds is fun. Facetanking mobs with billions of life regen is fun. Popping marked enemies for light AoEs is fun. The class's theme is very well done, especially considering the fact that it's constrained by being a blend of 2-3 vanilla classes. There's some rough bits that can be polished but I'm really satisfied with how this plays and reads.

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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 3:21 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 953
Location: Middle of Nowhere
But the base game has Zero conventions for conveying power, save, etc. TBH, I would prefer the base game adopt Recaiden's conventions than the other way around.


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:39 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
Posts: 743
Having any information about power/saves is good yes.

It's fine not having info for say, Berserker, if the talent is using phys power vs phys save, because that's what you're expecting. But the more suprising it is, the more it needs to be written, and might as well write it more often than not anyway.

It was surprising to see it presented like that to me but as Nsrr says, better than what base game often does :p

_________________
I write guides and make addons too now, apparently

You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!

Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)


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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:52 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:28 am
Posts: 83
nsrr wrote:
But the base game has Zero conventions for conveying power, save, etc. TBH, I would prefer the base game adopt Recaiden's conventions than the other way around.


You mean you don't like the basegame's convention of not specifying ever if something can even be saved against at all? :thonk:

Like I said, it shouldn't even bother me because it is indeed perfectly sensible in and of itself. I just like to forget that I'm not playing official content; it helps my immersion : )

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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:08 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:12 pm
Posts: 245
I doubt you can even recreate this, let alone fix it, but I figured I'd at least document it here in case someone else has a more permanent similar issue. When I created a new Fallen, something went wonky with my shaders and I was seeing black health bars on creatures instead of the usual green/yellow/red, and sustained talents weren't getting their yellow overlay. There were a few other minor graphical issues that I didn't bother to document.

Quitting the game, restarting it, and loading my saved game fixed the issue immediately.

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 Post subject: Re: Fallen Class
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:32 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:46 pm
Posts: 743
i've had that happen, usually caused by f.lux but a couple times by another program.

_________________
I write guides and make addons too now, apparently

You can go here for a compilation of everything I wrote, plus some other important stuff!

Includes general guides (inscriptions, zone, prodigies), and class guides (Demo, Anorithil, Bulwark, Zerker, Sblade)


Top
 Profile  
 
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