ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.1
PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 5:43 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:49 pm
Posts: 78
That's one of the problems you will run into when playing with addons. It tends to happen every now and then.

The magebow addon hasn't heen updated in quite a while it seems (since version 1.3.1), so it could be something on their end?

Hopefully it is updated soon, since we should have more ranged classes :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.1
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:55 pm
Posts: 241
Typo in Chakra: "regnerating".


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.1
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
tabs wrote:
Typo in Chakra: "regnerating".

Thank you, noted.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.1
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Someone mentioned White Monk in chat the other day, and I hadn't played in a while, so I decided to try it out in Embers.

(Whitehoof racials make them a royal pain in the rear for White Monks to fight, just in case anyone was wondering :evil: )

Found a couple bugs while I was playing, and made a couple tweaks... forgot to fix the typo in Chakra :oops:

v1.4.2
----
Fixed a bug with the merge code for the Enervate effect.

Fixed a bug with the Enervate talent that caused it to fail to increase the maximum number of stacks when used on a target already afflicted with the Enervate effect.

Slightly reduced the cost and cool down of Enervate.

Air Render now has a 33% chance to spread Enervate, up from 25%.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:44 pm 
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Posts: 3
I'm not quite sure if it's intended or not, but for some reason i'm able to use Secret Fist at a range outside of melee/personal (that is, at any range, just like any ranged ability). Is this some kind of a bug or is it an intended interaction of say, Air Render and Secret Fist? I mean, that would make some sense at least. Also, if it's important, i'm playing a Maj'Eyal Whitehoof.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:06 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Vismooth wrote:
I'm not quite sure if it's intended or not, but for some reason i'm able to use Secret Fist at a range outside of melee/personal (that is, at any range, just like any ranged ability). Is this some kind of a bug or is it an intended interaction of say, Air Render and Secret Fist? I mean, that would make some sense at least. Also, if it's important, i'm playing a Maj'Eyal Whitehoof.


Thanks for giving my class a try, and thanks for the report!

I actually had considered making Secret Fist a projected attack, but decided against it. That said, I tested it out, and you're definitely right, it seems to ignore the range. At first glance, I can't see anything wrong in the code, so I'm not totally sure why it's happening. I could toss in a range check before the attack is delivered in the action field of the talent, but it shouldn't be needed, so I'm little hesitant to fix it that way. I'll try to find some time to poke around at it a bit more and see if I can figure out why. In the mean time, enjoy the 'feature' :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.2
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
It's because getTarget() returns the x and y positions the player selected, even if those positions are outside of the ability's range*. You need to check canProject() like you do for Rending talents.

*Yes, this is terrible design on the part of t-engine, but we're stuck with it for now. It's so easy to miss that numerous vanilla abilities have the exact same bug - Dimensional Step swapping, Aetherwalk...

P.S. this class is immaculately designed and executed, better than the majority of vanilla classes and all other addon classes, but I'm disappointed that black belt isn't called Technique / Ending


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.3
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
minmay wrote:
It's because getTarget() returns the x and y positions the player selected, even if those positions are outside of the ability's range*. You need to check canProject() like you do for Rending talents.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of messing with the targeting forever trying to sort this out, much appreciated :D

v1.4.3.
---
Fixed a bug in Secret Fist (... and Withering Strike :oops: ) that allowed you to target outside of range.

minmay wrote:
P.S. this class is immaculately designed and executed, better than the majority of vanilla classes and all other addon classes

:shock:

Wow, thanks! That's... probably one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me :mrgreen:

minmay wrote:
I'm disappointed that black belt isn't called Technique / Ending


Glad you enjoyed the rhyming naming scheme for the talent categories :lol: I actually debated changing the names, cause I thought it was a little silly, but hell, I like silly :) During development I made the decision to use rhyming names for all of the Will categories, and not for Dex categories. I guess you might not have noticed the distinction if you were playing with your Remove Stat Reqs addons, though :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:20 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:34 am
Posts: 257
On reflection, I think I should give a more complete "review".

There are a lot of addon classes, most of which I've looked at, and they frequently suffer from a lack of purpose - they don't add anything unique, or they have really scattered talents, or the like. There are some vanilla classes where I'm still not clear how they were ever supposed to contribute to the game (*cough*skirmisher*cough*). White Monk doesn't have that problem at all. It has a very cool, unique central gimmick in making "melee" attacks at long range and in AoE shapes. Sure, Wyrmic and Solipsist do some of that, but they don't do it very well, and those classes have really unfocused designs anyway. So you're already ahead of 95% of the pack in terms of core design.

When I first started with the class, I was worried by the length of Air Render's description - it's usually a really bad sign when a mechanic is too complicated to explain in a couple of lines. However, it didn't take long to realize that the complexity is completely justified and necessary. Enervate interacting with the other three Rending talents prevents the boring rotations that you usually see with damaging actives. The pinning prevents excessive kiting.

And because of the clever design of the Rending tree, the class plays really well! You can make the obvious comparisons to archers and the like, but owing to mechanics like projectile speed and poorly designed actives, those classes play really sloppily compared to White Monk. And they don't get to use cool glove procs.

Transcend has obvious similarities to Shadow Veil - take the high risk of losing control of some actions, but with the high reward of getting greatly increased power - but it works much better than Shadow Veil. Even Shadow Veil's theoretical design is kind of ruined by Ambuscade taking out most of the risk... and in practice, the risk of using Shadow Veil with your main body is so high that you pretty much never want to do it. It's especially awful if there's more than one monster around.
Transcend doesn't have any of those problems, and it's still risky enough to be interesting, which makes it great fun to use.

I also really like the emphasis Pummel (and eventually Measured Blows) puts on melee projection and glove talents on hit. You were right to change gloves' dammod to emphasize Wil; so many glove effects (breaths etc.) are mindpower-based and having some actual mindpower, unlike Brawler, makes them a lot more satisfying. The Wil also makes antimagic somewhat less bad than it would otherwise be =P

I don't have a lot to say about other categories/talents, they're just really cleanly done and all have clear purposes. Using movement to refresh talent cooldowns is neat.

I can't find anything to complain about balance-wise either. Sure the class is probably high-tier but it's definitely not broken like Archmage/PM/Possessor/AB are, and I'd argue it's not as strong as Archer/Sawbutcher/TW either (and probably more classes). I wouldn't mind it being nerfed but I also wouldn't mind it staying at its current power level.

Bug reports
- Your Combat:getDammod() superload can cause an error with weapons that don't have a dammod, such as Telos' Bottom:
Code:
function _M:getDammod(combat)
        local dammod = base_dammod(self, combat)
        if combat.dammod.cun and combat.dammod.cun == 0.4 and combat.dammod.dex and combat.dammod.dex == 0.4 and -- likely not the best way to do this, but it works
        [...]
Fixed version:
Code:
function _M:getDammod(combat)
        local dammod = base_dammod(self, combat)
        if combat.dammod and combat.dammod.cun and combat.dammod.cun == 0.4 and combat.dammod.dex and combat.dammod.dex == 0.4 and -- likely not the best way to do this, but it works
        [...]
(This is another one that can barely be considered your fault, since why the hell are there weapons with no dammod field in the first place?)
- Transcend increases resistance caps by 0.25%, not 25% as it says (or 30% as the timed effect's description says) - so basically nothing.
- Because Transcend only applies never_act in its on_timeout hook instead of its activate hook, if you have >100% global speed and align correctly with the turn boundary, you can activate it and still take actions before it actually starts attacking and stops you from acting. This does give you the sexy option of extending Transcend with Timeless, but I doubt it's the intended behaviour.
- Description-only bug: Chakra's description claims to remove 0 effects at sufficiently low talent levels (like, um, 1.3) but it actually removes 1.
- Typos:
Air Render description: "If the target is hit, the force of the blow has a chance to enervate the them"
Focused Guard: "Deactive your Aura of Protection"

Complaints
- Since Aura of Protection can be activated instantly, the -1.0 stamina drain per turn is more annoying than it is meaningful; it mainly serves to make you deactivate it when you rest. Perhaps increase the amount drained, but make it only drain when monsters are nearby, similar to Berserker Rage? Alternatively, I think removing the constant stamina drain and increasing the damage-based stamina drain would work.
- The passive movement speed bonus from Agile Combatant is really small. 5/5/5/5ing the tree gives you the same movement speed bonus as an ordinary pair of boots of speed!
- Secret Fist scales really poorly with talent level after the first few points, and even has an easily reachable hard cap. I think you could improve this without making it overpowered/overcomplicated by making talent level affect the number of turns it puts talents on cooldown for, instead of it always being 3.
- Revive also doesn't scale with effective talent level at all. Obviously, this is already a really really strong talent, but mastery should do something. You could fix that without making it much more powerful/complicated by making the number of extra effective Chakra effects scale with talent level, instead of always being 8.
- The hard cap of 10%/20% speed on Energy Osmosis is unnecessary; the diminishing returns should already keep it in check. The hard cap on Deplete Spirit is obviously necessary, but it's too easy to reach, requiring only effective talent level 6.8 or so; putting on a +0.40 Transcending mastery amulet turned out to be really disappointing!
- This doesn't matter much outside of ID, but I'll say it anyway: the range caps on Enervate, Swift Strike, and maybe Aura Blast are oddly low. Especially Enervate, since Air Render can inflict the same status (if not as powerfully) and has a range cap that is 2 higher.

Anyway, thanks again for a great class addon!


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
minmay wrote:
Anyway, thanks again for a great class addon!


And thank you for the excellent review! I really appreciate the bug reports and critiques :)

A lot is owed to feedback I got early on, mostly from just one player (scul). Detailed reviews such as yours are what make it possible to work out all the kinks and really fine tune the class. You've given me a lot to consider, and I agree with pretty much all of it. You can expect an update in the near future addressing most of your comments.

Once again, I'm really glad you enjoy the class, and thank you for your feedback!


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.4
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
v1.4.4
---
[General]
Tweaked some numbers and max scaling for a few talents, mostly only affecting high-level scaling, such as in the ID.
Fixed an issue with the dam mod superload that could cause an error in (extremely) rare cases.
Fixed a few typos... missed the two minmay pointed out, somehow :roll:

[Secret Fist]
Length of talent CD inflicted now scales with talent level.

[Revive]
Number of bonus Chakra effects now scales with talent level.

[Aura of Protection]
No longer drains stamina. Cost per point of damage slightly increased. (This one is probably going to see some more tweaking still.)

[Transcend]
Now prevents you from acting as soon as the talent is activated.
Now properly increases resistance caps by 25% (instead of 0.25%).

[Agile Combatant (Tree)]
Each point invested now increases movement speed by 2%, up from 1%.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.3
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:08 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:27 pm
Posts: 243
A note I just realized: granted on this class Fast Metabolism has synergy with the emergency healmod boost, but is it worth the cat point even if you're a race that can't use infusions (hey, Skeleton isn't bad at all with this class if you grab Tinkers for salves)? Should this be replaced with something else perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.3
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:13 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Chronosplit wrote:
A note I just realized: granted on this class Fast Metabolism has synergy with the emergency healmod boost, but is it worth the cat point even if you're a race that can't use infusions (hey, Skeleton isn't bad at all with this class if you grab Tinkers for salves)? Should this be replaced with something else perhaps?


Skele should actually be pretty good, even without Tinkers. Resilient Bones plus the maximum bonus (reduced ailment duration) from Fending talents would make you almost immune to status ailments. Plus the heal and the damage shield? And free strength and dex? Yeah, quite strong, I would think.

As far as Combat Vet, though, yeah, it's not a great category. Neither is Tireless Combatant. They are both fully passive and really only serve to boost resource regeneration. White Monks can be quite stamina starved at certain points in the game, though. I found myself running out a lot in the lvl 20-30 or so range. Once you hit 30 you can grab Flexible Combat which significantly boosts your damage at zero resource cost, which helps a lot. Plus you have a fair chunk more stamina by that point, assuming you've been investing in Wil. Aura of Protection also scales really well with Wil, which reduces the constant stamina drain from the damage absorption.

So, is it worth it to unlock Combat Vet? Probably not, in the long run. Should it be replaced with something else? Maybe, but there's really nothing else that would work. There aren't any other Technique or Cunning trees that would make sense thematically or with the play style. Warcries might be an ok fit, play-wise, but I don't like it thematically on White Monk.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.5
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:25 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:45 pm
Posts: 651
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Welp, I knew I couldn't get away with changing that much without running into an error. Unfortuanately, I didn't find it in the testing I did before updating. Fortunately, I found it just before I was going to turn in for the night. Fix is up.

v1.4.5
---

[Chakra]
Fixed an error with the updated interaction with Revive that caused it to throw an error when activated (but not when triggered by Revive).

[General]
Fixed those typos while I was in there.


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 Post subject: Re: White Monk v 1.4.5
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:51 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:27 pm
Posts: 243
Quote:
So, is it worth it to unlock Combat Vet? Probably not, in the long run. Should it be replaced with something else? Maybe, but there's really nothing else that would work. There aren't any other Technique or Cunning trees that would make sense thematically or with the play style. Warcries might be an ok fit, play-wise, but I don't like it thematically on White Monk.

True. I can't think of any that either would fit (all Brawler trees are out for obvious reasons) or wouldn't be OP. Closest I would think is actually on the Celestial magic side like placing circles/glyphs as holy signs, but that would be dumb. Eh well, it does no harm anyway.


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