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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Nullpack v23 -- broken please get v24!

- New high-level Vector tree (Corruption / Deviltry) ... see above!
- New vision superload to make the demonic spotter summon work (the cool bits ripped off from StarKeep's Bunny addon)
- Vector demon summons now all scale with Magic and talent level rather than the arbitrary numbers they had before.

Overloaded Spell/Temporal and changed the effects a bit.
- Congeal Time is now slow + damage over time, but no projectile slow. Still range 6, still shoots through targets. The damage is low and doesn't scale well: as you level up, you're expected to use the spell mostly for the slow effect, but at very low levels you can kill with it.
- Time Prison now imposes "Time Prison Chains" effect (hit or miss), which reduces Temporal resistance and slows movement & projectiles.

Please let me know if this can be broken!

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Last edited by Doctornull on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Doctornull wrote:
Overloaded Spell/Temporal and changed the effects a bit.
- Congeal Time is now slow + damage over time, but no projectile slow. Still range 6, still shoots through targets. The damage is low and doesn't scale well: as you level up, you're expected to use the spell mostly for the slow effect, but at very low levels you can kill with it.
- Time Prison now imposes "Time Prison Chains" effect (hit or miss), which reduces Temporal resistance and slows movement & projectiles.

Please let me know if this can be broken!
Turns out it shipped broken. The Temporal Prison Chains effect was granting a movement BONUS instead of a penalty, and the bonus was about 100x larger than intended.

Get the new version 24 please!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:17 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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Will the Time Prison Chains hit yourself? As that could be annoying in one particularly good use for the talent.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:43 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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HousePet wrote:
Will the Time Prison Chains hit yourself? As that could be annoying in one particularly good use for the talent.
Yes, it hits everyone who gets imprisoned.

For a tri-beam Archmage the missile speed penalty is largely irrelevant, but you won't be walking very fast.

Maybe it shouldn't hit friendly targets... is Time Prison a thing people often use on themselves or their escorts?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:27 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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Temporary invulnerability can be a useful thing. :)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:07 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:49 pm
Posts: 103
Hey i just wanted to clarify my comment on chat a bit before im off to bed ;)

i think the difficulty using ur addon decreases a little simply because rare mobs are now less likely to be one of the very dangerous classes like archmage, oozemancer, solipsist - ofc nothing wrong with ur addon urself but because it adds a large number of classes which all are pretty tricky to play - the AI fails at playing tricky with them obviously.

that said the option u mentioned would be great to be implemented.

i really like the design of most of ur classes, escpecially the heavy which i failed a lot trying to get it run on nightmare - but will try again soon ;)

the creep and striker also look pretty interesting and i tried the early game with many of them and have to say that theyre pretty well balanced (at least not too strong which is good)

that said ill only add a thanks for ur work - and wow ure upping many updates ATM


€diting cuz i dont wanna spam this topic:

meanwhile i met a striker skeleton uniq boss with 17k HP who hit me for 2,8k light DMG (i got pretty good allres) from stealth and sent me into a 600/dmg per turn cauterize.. which took me around 20 minutes to get him down safely xD (he also had numerous other lvl 24 shadowblade/ archmage skills and ofc maxed disperse magic) so im relativating my comment a little ;)

but besides playing with the everything is unique addon it took me till lvl 7x for example for the first time to meet a dreamscape boss and my run went pretty smoothly (im more like a mediocre skilled player)

since im a little tired this is now the chance and ill start trying ur new release and play one of ur classes on normal/adventure now - thx for the quick release, ill send feedback


Last edited by Tharsonius on Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Tharsonius wrote:
i think the difficulty using ur addon decreases a little simply because rare mobs are now less likely to be one of the very dangerous classes like archmage, oozemancer, solipsist - ofc nothing wrong with ur addon urself but because it adds a large number of classes which all are pretty tricky to play - the AI fails at playing tricky with them obviously.
Check out Nullpack v25 -- I've added a tab to the Game Options screen ("Nullpack NPCs") which will allow you to turn Nullpack stuff off for NPC generation.

It seems to work, but it's my first time coding settings, so if you use this please keep an eye out and let me know if there are any problems.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:57 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Tharsonius wrote:
since im a little tired this is now the chance and ill start trying ur new release and play one of ur classes on normal/adventure now - thx for the quick release, ill send feedback
I tried to set the AI tactics for my talents to appropriate things -- and you will see a Striker NPC using Lightning Leap in annoying ways, I hope. :)

That said, I'm all for playing how you want, so if you do decide to turn off Nullpack talents or classes with the settings in v25, please let me know if it works! ;) I think it works, it looks like it works, but it's hard to know for sure since randomness plays a big role in NPC generation.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:49 pm
Posts: 103
Hi there, i played a Skeleton Fossil on normal/adventure recently.

i chose options turn NPC classes OFF and talents ON at the beginning of the game, which seems to work. im lvl 43 now farportaling a little to prepare for high peak and i will check the rares i will meet.

the fossil class seems suitable for normal mode, beginning was a little harder than arcane blade because we dont have any spells at lvl 1-10

so i maxed unarmed mastery and put some points to dual strike and counter attacking

from lvl 10 on when i unlocked stone the game went pretty smoothly and i did the master at lvl 24, ambush lvl 25 which were both pretty easy with this class (used maxed earthquake for ambush) - maximizing earthen missile and arcane combat

2nd catpoint infusion slot

third catpoint cunning/dirty fighting to get backstab and the status attacks, also to get more stamina skills since i wanted to take never stop running prodigy.

other class points i distributed to pugilism tree, and generics into skeleton racials/aegis/thick skin

around lvl 33 i got a little problems though since i didnt have any good gloves, and i died once to the backup guardian in daikara (1 hit massive blow into a wall) - shoulda known better though as i know him and that he has that blow and massive armor. i had problems with any decent armored targets at that point of the game.. so i did 1 dreadfell vault and crafted merchant gloves, which are pretty usable and now the character is rolling again.

at lvl 42 i took flexible combat as second prodigy and put some points to maximize damage output

this only as a short guide how the class can get thru the game on normal. if ure able to find nice randart gloves with the brawlers ego, 4/4/2/x pugilism will get u to 1 turn cooldown for double strike which will proc a lot of earthen missiles. for me the cooldown is only 2 for now

still got many points to put which i will chose to either increase my defense(to abuse counter attacking) or more shielding, depending a little on what kind of gear ill find

link:http://te4.org/characters/70874/tome/7767ea6d-bab3-40c5-bbc8-c9aab9709ead

€dit: i now finished the game without further deaths. double strike did like 2.5k average damage i guess in the end.

ur build advice was fine, i hadnt put crystalline focus only because my gloves had over 100% damage conversion to blight, darkness, acid damage. but before the final fight i changed the gloves and then took full advantage of the phys res penetration since the two bosses got pretty nice resist ofc.

flurry of fist buffed by greater weapon focus lvl4 from a ring took down the reaver from like 90% life to 32% which i guess will be more than 5 k damage

so this character is about the same power as arcane blade, only lacking a bit of his mobility but having better attack speed of course (rush is locked and no teleport and phase door) which is why i chose never stop running prodigy before the prides.. although the prodigy in 105 i still the same as 1.04 it was worth it because u can kill scattered mages easily without them being able to cast while ure moving (this char is even 1 hitting lvl 70 corrupters with full bone shield 1 hit with double strike, sometimes even auto attack - and it doesnt end after u killed an enemy like movement infusion)

in 106 when the prodigy will be no turn activation and 12stamina per tile cost, i think it will be one of the best available! especially for melees(and even more for undead melees who cant use movement infusions).. i also took it because double strike is no stamina cost and the other skills are pretty cheap.. and u can use gloves with second wind on strike to refill stamina easily


Last edited by Tharsonius on Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:19 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Location: Ambush!
@ Tharsonius - it's really nice to see a Fossil getting so far! It's basically a specific Arcane Blade build, so in theory (and in my limited testing) it should be about as viable as an Arcane Blade, and it's great to see that it does work out that way in practice.

In terms of build advice, I'd probably go hard into Crystalline Focus or Exploit Weakness, or both, since both of those give you Physical damage penetration.

Flexible Combat is godly on this class, as is Eye of the Tiger or Giant Leap. I'm very curious how you find Never Stop Running, I don't usually take that one. :)

Very glad the NPC options seem to be working for you!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:25 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:35 pm
Posts: 118
So, I've been playing the heavy, and I found a few things.

One, they NEED advanced trees. They have no level 10+ trees.

Two, they really need some more non-casting locked trees. The only locked trees that are really worth getting are speed control (mainly for celerity and haste), and whichever stamina shield tree isn't locked (been playing a cornac, so I grabbed it right away). With the amount of paradox that gets tied up with melee temporal sustains (weapon folding, strength of purpose, displace damage, quantum feed) they have a very hard time getting enough room to use the temporal infantry and chronomancy movement lines safely. Relying on casting for offense isn't really an option - especially since they already need WILL for combat chronomancy, stamina, paradox, STR for melee, Dex for boosting shield abilities, and Con for tanking. They really don't have room to boost magic beyond Quantum Feed.

Three, Timekeeper is an awesome idea, but it really ought be influenced by taking shield prodigies. If I take Spectral shield (and not taking it on the third-heaviest shield user in the game is stupid.) the increasing block type effect becomes pointless because it now blocks everything anyway. Taking spectral shield should make the every 10 level boost gain something to replace the additional block type that became obsolete.

Suggestions: A custom tree or two - there aren't many advanced combat or chronomancy trees that fit. Everything in those lines is either advanced tactics or magic. Combat veteran - Heavies NEED stamina regen badly with the number of stamina using sustains they have and the large number of stamina actives.

Idea: A custom tree focusing on teleportation based combat.
1: Harnessed Phasing: Boost to defense after using teleports or space-time movement effects (so yes, the lvl1 temporal infantry triggers it) passive
2: Phasing Shockwave: Range-1 damage burst after teleporting/space-time movement - to encourage use of teleports for rapid insertion. sustain
3: Phasing strike: Teleport to target and attack with weapon and shield - no minimum range, so it can be used as boosted melee attack. Active
4: Teleport blitz: Teleport to and attack all enemies in range. Range and maximum attacks scale with willpower, level or paradox. Extra attacks focused on primary target. active.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:44 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
Posts: 2402
Location: Ambush!
@ Tharsonius, please only edit your post in response to posts ABOVE the post you edit. Nobody is going to see your response or understand that you are responding to someone BELOW you unless they are obsessively re-loading this thread, like, um, me.

It's not spamming to post twice in one thread.

Your points are good ones, and it's a shame most people would not see them.


@ pheonix89, it's true that the Heavy may merit a high-level tree, but look at the current Temporal Warden and you'll see the exact same pattern: strong early options which scale well, but few high-level expansions, and no level 10+ trees at all.

Regarding Stamina, I think Tharsonius makes a good point about how good Invigorate can be. Note that it's even better for a class which has Block since you can often "buy time" more easily than another class could.

Regarding how hard it is to keep all your Paradox sustains up -- heh, heh, heh, yes. Which ones you invest in, and which ones you keep running, is intended to be a difficult decision. You should NOT be able to keep all your Sustains active all the time -- but also, you should NOT be required to invest 5/5 in all of them to succeed. Like with Strength of Purpose: it's entirely possible to put 1 or 2 points in it to get yourself through level 30 or so, and then turn it off for the rest of the game and rely on your equipment buffs to compensate. It's also possible to entirely ignore Quantum Feed, or to go deep into Quantum Feed and ignore Weapon Folding once you get Time Travel / Static History. These are your strategic choices, and how you use your choices matters a lot. ;)

Think about an Archmage who tried to run every possible sustain, as soon as they became available. That Archmage would die a sad, messy death. The Heavy isn't as complex as an Archmage, but you still need to think about which sustains you can afford.


Regarding Timekeeper getting a special buff from Spectral Shield... wouldn't that make the combo a no-brainer? I'm not fond of no-brainers. I'd really prefer the class to have several good, smart, competitive Prodigy choices. If Spectral Shield seems like a waste ... that's cool, just pick up something else. If you want to use a different shield (one with a spell charm, or on-block spell procs, for example), then maybe you should consider Spectral Shield. Having that choice is good. I want there to be at least 3 good, smart, valid ways to play the Heavy, and sticking with Timekeeper should be only one of them.

Does that make sense?

Cheers!


EDIT: That said, I'm thinking about a new high-level tree for the Heavy, and suitable for Wardens as well. I like the idea of buffing teleport insertions. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:49 pm
Posts: 103
@doctornull

Ure right ill seperate the posts

@ PHOENIX89 - the heavy has already pretty strong trees and the mastery for all his trees is also higher than that of a temporal wardens.

Invigorate is really sick skill which gives stamina regen, also shield combat has low stamina cost anyway

strength of purpose and quantum feed are not really worth maxing, if u ignore them u can completely ignore willpower and max magic instead

Timekeeper shield is close to OP imo because its half a prodigy

echoes from the past is a 6 cooldown spell, with invigorate its 3 cooldown and radius 6 or 7.. which is so broken that u can kill any boss with low damage + this skill alone up to athamathon, best combined with temporal wake and most likely gravitic pull from the new designed tree (i dont know the max range of it yet)

the gravity tree is also an option since gravity well and gravity spike (also 3 cooldown with invigorate) are both pretty good skills and profit from phys damage % same as ur attacks

hidden resources is a nice prodigy if u go for casting and high global speed, since u wont build any paradox and can use the most expensive skills only limited by cooldown

the locked shield tree is the last i would take on this class, but thats only my thoughts on it based on experiences with wardens.

i will play heavy on nightmare soon again, i guess most problems should be getting it started to lvl 25


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:34 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:35 pm
Posts: 118
Doctornull wrote:
@ pheonix89, it's true that the Heavy may merit a high-level tree, but look at the current Temporal Warden and you'll see the exact same pattern: strong early options which scale well, but few high-level expansions, and no level 10+ trees at all.

Regarding Stamina, I think Tharsonius makes a good point about how good Invigorate can be. Note that it's even better for a class which has Block since you can often "buy time" more easily than another class could.

Regarding how hard it is to keep all your Paradox sustains up -- heh, heh, heh, yes. Which ones you invest in, and which ones you keep running, is intended to be a difficult decision. You should NOT be able to keep all your Sustains active all the time -- but also, you should NOT be required to invest 5/5 in all of them to succeed. Like with Strength of Purpose: it's entirely possible to put 1 or 2 points in it to get yourself through level 30 or so, and then turn it off for the rest of the game and rely on your equipment buffs to compensate. It's also possible to entirely ignore Quantum Feed, or to go deep into Quantum Feed and ignore Weapon Folding once you get Time Travel / Static History. These are your strategic choices, and how you use your choices matters a lot. ;)

Think about an Archmage who tried to run every possible sustain, as soon as they became available. That Archmage would die a sad, messy death. The Heavy isn't as complex as an Archmage, but you still need to think about which sustains you can afford.


Regarding Timekeeper getting a special buff from Spectral Shield... wouldn't that make the combo a no-brainer? I'm not fond of no-brainers. I'd really prefer the class to have several good, smart, competitive Prodigy choices. If Spectral Shield seems like a waste ... that's cool, just pick up something else. If you want to use a different shield (one with a spell charm, or on-block spell procs, for example), then maybe you should consider Spectral Shield. Having that choice is good. I want there to be at least 3 good, smart, valid ways to play the Heavy, and sticking with Timekeeper should be only one of them.

Does that make sense?

Cheers!


EDIT: That said, I'm thinking about a new high-level tree for the Heavy, and suitable for Wardens as well. I like the idea of buffing teleport insertions. Thanks!

Temporal wardens are actually kinda incoherent atm - they can melee, but they suck at it. They wind up as an archer/paradox mage hybrid without most of the paradox mage's trump cards and weaker archery.

But then, the only hybrid classes that actually feel coherent to me are Wyrmic, Stone warden, and sun paladin. Not coincidentally, these are ones that have the least overlap.

And I guess I was seeing them as sort of Bulwark/chrono to the Temporal Wardens dual-wield melee/archery/chrono, so I was looking for more melee. And if you are a shield user, I don't think there are ever any scenarios where you shouldn't grab both shield trees. Riposte is vital for proper counterattacks (good luck getting counterattack bonuses on anything that matters when you have to block everything) and shield expertise boosts pretty much every shield skill ever.

And I don't see not using Weapon Folding as ever being viable, unless you aren't meleeing. Its your best constant source of paradox reduction, a ton of your class skills trigger it, and the damage is nice. Hell, I think 5/5 weapon folding will make Heavy Impact be a net paradox reducer.

Tharsonius, not boosting will isn't an option. A ton of skills beyond the sustains run off it, and you need it boost your safe paradox limit anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:41 pm 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:46 pm
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Location: Ambush!
pheonix89 wrote:
Temporal wardens are actually kinda incoherent atm - they can melee, but they suck at it. They wind up as an archer/paradox mage hybrid without most of the paradox mage's trump cards and weaker archery.
Yeah, the TW isn't great, and I made the Heavy in part to showcase how I thought the TW talents could be better put to use.

My only real point here is that the TW is allegedly balanced, and it has no high-level trees either.

But you're right, the TW is not currently an impressive implementation. I'll aim to make a high-level tree which is appropriate for both the Heavy and the TW. Thanks!


pheonix89 wrote:
And I guess I was seeing them as sort of Bulwark/chrono to the Temporal Wardens dual-wield melee/archery/chrono, so I was looking for more melee. And if you are a shield user, I don't think there are ever any scenarios where you shouldn't grab both shield trees. Riposte is vital for proper counterattacks (good luck getting counterattack bonuses on anything that matters when you have to block everything) and shield expertise boosts pretty much every shield skill ever.
Riposte is in the unlocked tree, and I agree that it is key to pretty much every Heavy build.

Shield Expertise is not really necessary. It's nice, and it works, but you can get acceptable damage in plenty of other ways.

I do see ways to use magic, though, especially the Gravity tree. My intention is for the Heavy to be able to do crowd-control, including crowd lockdown, in order to get melee to happen where & when he wants it.

Also, note that the Heavy is able to impose Pin more easily than most classes, and can profit from Pinning through the Gravity tree more easily than most Chronomancers... or so I hope! ;)


pheonix89 wrote:
And I don't see not using Weapon Folding as ever being viable, unless you aren't meleeing. Its your best constant source of paradox reduction, a ton of your class skills trigger it, and the damage is nice. Hell, I think 5/5 weapon folding will make Heavy Impact be a net paradox reducer.
Investing in Weapon Folding is entirely valid, and that's intended. You do have a bunch of multi-attack skills in the Shield Offense tree.

NONETHELESS, buffing Weapon Folding is not the ONLY valid way to play, and managing your sustains is a thing which you must do. Maybe you choose to invest in Weapon Folding -- that's cool! -- but to do so, you must sacrifice another sustain, or you must sacrifice reliable casting.

That's the Heavy's major strategic problem. I like when power comes with consequences. ;)

Cheers!

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