ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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 Post subject: Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:35 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 pm
Posts: 708
So, I made a new class! I'm not terribly good at this game, so I can't say much about its balance, but I tried to make it decent. Comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Addon Page

It's a monk; key attributes are willpower and dexterity. It fights unarmed like a brawler.
As of v4, you can find it under Warrior.

I'll start with the existing talents:

Generic:
Technique / Field Control - 1.10
Technique / Combat Training - 1.30
Technique / Mobility - 1.20 (locked as of v4)
Technique / Conditioning - 1.10
Cunning / Survival - 1.0 (locked)

Class:
Technique / Combat techniques - 1.30
Technique / Combat veteran - 1.30
Cunning / Dirty Fighting - 1.00 (locked)

All of the new trees are class trees. The first one is a replacement for the brawler's unarmed fighting tree, using willpower instead of cunning.

Technique / Ki combat - 1.30
Ki Combat - Identical to Unarmed Mastery
Ki Strikes - Sustain, adds mind damage to your attacks
Ki Shield - Sustain, half of all damage taken is converted to stamina loss
Ki Mastery - Passive. Ki Strikes now increases your physical power. Ki Shield now gives you light radius and light damage when hit.

The other 4 new trees each deal with a stance. The first skill in each tree switches you to the corresponding stance, and sets the first skill in the other 3 trees on a long cooldown. The rest can only be used when in the proper stance, and switch you to a different stance upon use. Each skill also gives you a passive bonus for when you're in that stance, which I'll mark with [brackets]. Additionally, each stance changes the mind damage from Ki Strikes to a different element.

Technique / Tiger stance - 1.30 (lightning)
Pouncing Strike - Short range, low cooldown rush that doesn't daze. [movement speed]
Piercing Strike - Strong attack that causes bleeding. Switches to turtle stance. [physical critical chance]
Charged Leap - Short range move, do area lightning daze damage where you land. Switches to dragon stance. [defense]
Leaping Strike - Hit for weapon and lightning daze damage. If the space immediately opposite the target is open, move there afterwards. Switches to phoenix stance. [free action]

Technique / Dragon stance - 1.30 (nature)
Dragon's Heart - Recover stamina. [stamina regen]
Dragon's Eye - Instant short-range intimidate. Switches to phoenix stance. [life regen]
Dragon's Fang - Strong attack that ignores armor. Switches to tiger stance. [physical power]
Dragon's Roar - Melee hit that sends out a cone of confusion. Switches to turtle stance. [healing factor]

Technique / Turtle stance - 1.30 (cold)
Blocking Strike - Weak attack and block (as with a shield). [physical resistance]
Shell Crash - Step into a target, damage and knockback to them and adjacent targets. Switches to dragon stance. [armor]
Freezing Strike - Melee hit that sends out a line of cold and freezing damage. Switches to phoenix stance. [mental resistance]
Shell Defense - Short-term instant damage shield. Switches to tiger stance. [resist all]

Technique / Phoenix stance - 1.30 (fire)
Pounding Blows - 2 attacks, stun for a turn per hit. [accuracy]
Flare Strike - Melee hit with blind burst. Switches to tiger stance. [spell resistance]
Quivering Palm - Melee hit that stuns, and then stuns again 8 turns later (similar to stoning poison). Switches to turtle stance. [armor piercing]
Exploding Palm - Melee hit that knocks back, and then the target explodes for area fire damage. If the knockback is resisted, the target takes the explosion damage but nothing else does. Switches to dragon stance. [attack speed]


Edit: bugfix.
Edit 2: Now start with 1 point in ki combat.
Edit 3: Enabled in arena
Edit 4: more bugfixes

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Addons: Arcane Blade Tweaks, Fallen Race, Monk Class, Weapons Pack
Currently working on Elementals. It's a big project, so any help would be appreciated. :)


Last edited by grayswandir on Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10230
Location: Angolwen
Hum I'm quite impressed, I've played to level 10 or so and it's quite fun I must admit.
I love the idea of the many stance switching, feels a bit weird but interresting.
And you made the addon the right way: without overloading file :)

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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:15 am
Posts: 300
I agree, this is very well done! It feels quite a bit different than the brawler and I really like the low cool down on the rush-like pouncing strike. He actually feels like a monk :)

Haven't played it very far though, and the only knock I have so far is that you can't use the class in the Arena. The Arena is especially helpful for testing with new classes since the upgrades come so much quicker. You can just copy and paste the last line in the birth.lua file and change "Maj'Eyal" to "Arena" to enable arena mode.

One other small nitpick is maybe the class could use another locked tree. Since there are only two locked trees currently, category points will be used the same way with all builds. I really like Ki Combat, but it seems like it could go for being unlocked at level 10 since it contains talents that might come from deeper monk training, like through spiritual exploration or divine intervention. Or, maybe make the mobility tree locked instead? Since it's a marauder staple, it would make sense that the monk could only achieve it later in his career.

Overall though, I really like the feel of the class so far. Nothing really seems over powered, and the mobility options give it some good survivability. Good job!


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 pm
Posts: 708
Thanks for the feedback! I've added the arena mode and uploaded it to the main site, so get it there now.

daftigod wrote:
One other small nitpick is maybe the class could use another locked tree. Since there are only two locked trees currently, category points will be used the same way with all builds. I really like Ki Combat, but it seems like it could go for being unlocked at level 10 since it contains talents that might come from deeper monk training, like through spiritual exploration or divine intervention. Or, maybe make the mobility tree locked instead? Since it's a marauder staple, it would make sense that the monk could only achieve it later in his career.

I agree that it needs another locked tree, but nothing seemed like a good idea to me. I definitely want Ki Combat to always be available. I'll try a game where I treat Mobility as locked, and see how that goes.

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Addons: Arcane Blade Tweaks, Fallen Race, Monk Class, Weapons Pack
Currently working on Elementals. It's a big project, so any help would be appreciated. :)


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Retired Ninja

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 3756
Some of my early brain storms for Brawlers (they actually where called Monk very early on in development) looked like this (the animal based stances that is).

Have you considered doing this is a Wilder/Brawler hybrid? The changing damage type thing and will requirement feels more Wilder based (and it kinda fits the animal stances theme).

Also if you have any ideas for Brawlers they could use some help. I've been neglecting them because I'm not sure what to do with them (and have been busy with other things).

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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:28 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:54 am
Posts: 379
Location: Wroclaw/Poland
First of all, a great class, Im currently lev 11 and having some good time :)
One thing though - the bonuses from various stances are not displayed in the Character sheet. So ether they aren't properly calculated or just not showing up in the sheet.
still, great class, hope some updates will come ;)


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 pm
Posts: 708
MisiuPysiu wrote:
One thing though - the bonuses from various stances are not displayed in the Character sheet. So ether they aren't properly calculated or just not showing up in the sheet.

They show up for me? Could you be more specific about which bonuses aren't working?

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Addons: Arcane Blade Tweaks, Fallen Race, Monk Class, Weapons Pack
Currently working on Elementals. It's a big project, so any help would be appreciated. :)


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:54 am
Posts: 379
Location: Wroclaw/Poland
Ok.
Tiger Stance:
Defence - NO
Crit Chance - NO
Movement Speed - YES
Stun Res. - YES (one point invested gives me more than 85% stun res and it shoud be 15%
Dragon stance:
Accuracy - NO
So far these are the one I hat opportunity to test.

Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:12 am
Posts: 543
edge2054 wrote:
Also if you have any ideas for Brawlers they could use some help. I've been neglecting them because I'm not sure what to do with them (and have been busy with other things).

I feel one of the most useful things you could give a brawler would be T2/T4 material gloves. T2 can be a bit of a drag because you're stuck chipping minotaurs and snow giants to death with the equivalent of an iron weapon if you don't get lucky with gear. Haven't played one into the east yet, so I don't know if the same issue sprouts up again after Dreadfell.


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Retired Ninja

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 3756
hehe.. I don't want to hijack the thread with brawler stuff. I just thought grayswandir had some cool ideas and maybe he could pm me or start a new thread if he had specific brawler ideas.

But since the above would pertain to both classes let me say that adding tier 2 and 4 gloves was nixed by powers on high to prevent drop pollution for other classes. The passive physical power bonus brawlers gain as they level is meant to help bridge the gap a bit and would probably be dropped if more glove material levels were added.

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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:29 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:11 am
Posts: 683
Interesting class.
Here is my experience with it (a normal game).

Ki combat and ki strikes are very useful. At level 9 i had these on talent level 3 and 5. This provides my main damage. I like the fast attack speed of gloves combined with the extra damage from ki strikes.

The stances are not useful except for the passive bonus they provide. The stance switching and forced cooldown is annoying. Maybe it just does not fit my playstyle.
To make the stances useful you need to invest in all stances, this means 4x4 =16 talents, 5 points each = 80 class points just to make the entire thing work. Obviously, this is not possible at the early game. The bonus damage it provides means it is probably better to just use your auto attack. A 2 turn stun is not impressive, a few turns of blind is acceptable but not amazing. That makes pounding blows -> flare strike the only useful combo at low level. The critical strike bonus and movement speed of pouncing/piercing strike are useful but you cannot enter that stance out of combat, when it might be the most useful.

My suggestions:
* Increase the damage of pounding blows, turning it into a useful damage talent with a short stun.
* Flare strike should have radius 1 at talent level 1.
* Increase the range of pouncing strike by 1.

I personally think it would be more interesting if you could change your stance at any time, without spending a turn, without triggering a cooldown. I would remove the automatic stance switching when using a talent. I would keep the stance requirement (you can only use skills when in the right stance). This would change the dynamic of the class quite drastically so I understand if you do not agree with this.

I think the main problem is the combinations... if you use quivering strike, then you enter turtle stance. If you don't have any class points in these talents... then you are stuck. This is a major issue early game where you do not have enough class points to get all these talent. For example, to be able to switch from phoenix stance to tiger stance and back to phoenix stance again, I have to be at least level 12 (to get the 4th talent called leaping strike).

Another example is dragon hart. This skill is forced on cooldown by using Pounding blows. What good is a talent to me when it is going to be on cooldown? This means I cannot use one of these 2 talents. Since I have to use pounding blows to use flare strike, I am stuck. I understand that once you can chain skills this is not an issue, but that is not always possible.


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:55 pm
Posts: 708
Alright, I uploaded a new version. This should fix the problems that MisiuPysiu mentioned (thanks for the help). I also rebalanced the stance passives some to make them more uniform. Thanks for the feedback, everybody!

edge2054 wrote:
Have you considered doing this is a Wilder/Brawler hybrid? The changing damage type thing and will requirement feels more Wilder based (and it kinda fits the animal stances theme).

I'd consider them more of a psionic class, if anything. I viewed it as trying to emulate animals with the stances, but not actually drawing power from them, or however it is equilibrium works. If anything I'd drop the changing damage types first.

edge2054 wrote:
hehe.. I don't want to hijack the thread with brawler stuff. I just thought grayswandir had some cool ideas and maybe he could pm me or start a new thread if he had specific brawler ideas.

I have yet to actually play a brawler, so ...

marvalis wrote:
I think the main problem is the combinations... if you use quivering strike, then you enter turtle stance. If you don't have any class points in these talents... then you are stuck. This is a major issue early game where you do not have enough class points to get all these talent. For example, to be able to switch from phoenix stance to tiger stance and back to phoenix stance again, I have to be at least level 12 (to get the 4th talent called leaping strike).

All of the first tier skills have fairly low cooldowns, so you can do sequences like: Tier 1 -> attack -> attack -> Tier 2 -> Tier 1 -> attack -> attack -> Tier 3 -> Tier 1 -> attack -> ... .

marvalis wrote:
To make the stances useful you need to invest in all stances, this means 4x4 =16 talents, 5 points each = 80 class points just to make the entire thing work. Obviously, this is not possible at the early game.

You really don't need all that. I've gotten through the early levels just fine by focusing on phoenix or tiger. I think it's a good idea to max one of the first tier skills, but other than that I don't really think its necessary. So long as you make sure it's easy to get back to the one stance you're good at, you don't need to pump the other ones.

marvalis wrote:
* Increase the damage of pounding blows, turning it into a useful damage talent with a short stun.
* Flare strike should have radius 1 at talent level 1.

These may be a good idea. I'll try running through with a phoenix focused monk again later and see if these are too weak by themselves.

marvalis wrote:
* Increase the range of pouncing strike by 1.

Did you notice it increased by talent level?

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Addons: Arcane Blade Tweaks, Fallen Race, Monk Class, Weapons Pack
Currently working on Elementals. It's a big project, so any help would be appreciated. :)


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:11 am
Posts: 683
grayswandir wrote:
Did you notice it increased by talent level?

I had a suspicion it might. As you guessed, mine was still at level 1.
It only shows increased range at 3 points, so I did not even notice this.
(at level 1, the tooltip does not indicate that range would increase with talent level)

grayswandir wrote:
All of the first tier skills have fairly low cooldowns, so you can do sequences like: Tier 1 -> attack -> attack -> Tier 2 -> Tier 1 -> attack -> attack -> Tier 3 -> Tier 1 -> attack -> ... .

All my tier 1 talents only had 1 class point. Using one to change stance would put others on cooldown for 11 turns. Kinda annoying. Solution would be to put more points into them, but is this penalty really needed?


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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:15 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:13 am
Posts: 372
When you're in a stance, you can use its Tier 1 without putting other tier 1s in cooldown. Also, if you use a tier 1 its cooldown is short even if all the others go to 11. So you can run around in Tiger Stance, use the tiger Tier 1 to close, use the Phoenix Tier 1 to stun, punch a few times, use the phoenix Tier 2, use the phoenix Tier 1 again, and so on.

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 Post subject: Re: [b41] Monk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:22 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:11 am
Posts: 683
Increased unarmed critical chance does not seem to show up on the character sheet? From tiger stance.

Attack speed remains 60, even with Ki combat.

Using Phoenix stance increases attack speed by 6.5 instead of lowering it by 11%. (combat_physspeed is weird. A value of 5 gives 20% attack speed).

Also, I don’t want to sound like a jerk, but Ki shield is just a bad shielding rune that drains your stamina. Most talent consume a lot of stamina.


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