[1.0.4] Concept Build: Four Heath Bars (winner)

[Doctornull]

This build is intended to be very defensive, and it seems successful so far (level 44). He's the first character with whom I was confident enough to clear every level of Melinda's tomb, and even that didn't bring him down to half health.

He died once, because in my supreme hubris I opened a certain door in the Vor Armory at level 35 and didn't run away fast enough (or at all)... but even there, he lasted 3 rounds in the breath-weapon crossfire, which is 2 more rounds than he deserved.

Here he is:
http://te4.org/characters/52902/tome/d6 ... 25b2342d1d

Right now he's filled in all the talents which I'd wanted, and he's got 3 cat points, 12 class talent points and 1 generic talent point unspent. Going forward they're basically free. I'd like advice on what to buy.

Here's how the trees have performed for me:

Wild / Mucus - Oh my god this thing is brokenly good, especially in combo with Antimagic Shield, but even by itself it's a free army of oozy artillery AND a horribly powerful source of stacking poison. I put the first talent on auto-use always forever, and I hardly ever have Equilibrium issues. This tree is so good I'm a bit worried that it's just carrying the rest of my build. Also the description is wrong, it says I ought to be getting half the mucus slimes which I actually get... in practice I get 1 slime per 10 Cunning. At 100+ Cunning, that's an army.

Psionic / Absorption - This is the key to my early melee survival, what with the Kinetic shield and the telekinetic weapon slot. The TK weapon has performed very nicely throughout the whole game. The other reason why this tree is here is to feed my Psi bar, which is a life bar thanks to ...

Psionic / Solipsism - I've had trouble managing this tree before. In earlier test builds, the tree didn't really help, but in this one it seems to be coming together better. I always had more Life than Psi, even when I'd maxed out Willpower at 97 (60) points and had Con around 35 (12), but the Psi bar is usually more full at the end of a fight thanks to Absorption. My strategy this run was to save up talent points and put them all in at once when I would get a significant benefit from Solipsism, so stayed at 4/0/0/0 for a while, then jumped to 5/1/5/0 all at once, then finally jumped to 5/1/5/5. The speed boost is great since I'm a tanky melee guy, and I have enough mobility to get into some orc necromancer's face and lay down some bump-attack smack while my one active Mucus attack talent cools down.

Cursed / Gloom - I picked this just because it seems fun on a melee guy, and it's been very useful as crowd-control at 1/1/1/5. Having Gloom means I've got a decent source of Hate, which opens the door to a Hate-based attack school, or maybe even Shadows.

... and that's it for class talents.

In terms of Generics, he went for:

Psi / Feedback - this is literally the only Generic tree he had to start, it was kind of sad saving up all those Generic points until I'd bought Mindstar Mastery. Feedback has been a persistently useful resource, and even at 1/5 the capstone talent Conversion has been a life-saver. He doesn't use the shield much anymore, but when he first got it, it was nice.

Technique / Combat Training - 5/1/0/0/0 and I'm not sure that the first 5 is even useful for this guy, seeing as his damage is mitigated by so many other effects. Still, it's not like he's got much else to do with those points, and maybe it is helping.

Wild / Mindstar Mastery - 5/0/0/0 because he'd never bother to use Leaves Tide in combat, since slimes are cheap to replace. The first talent is great, and absolutely vital to the build's melee viability.

Wild / Fungus - 5/1/1/0 so I can automate my two Regen infusions. The Equilibrium regen is useless on a Mucus heavy build like this.

Wild / Antimagic - 1/4/5/0, and this is why I care about Equilibrium regen. Antimagic Shield looks kinda low-impact in terms of numbers, but it seems pretty good in combo with Absorption. I'll usually take zero damage from an attack, and the Equilibrium impact of a round's shielding is usually more than compensated by my slimes being slimy on my mucus. With my Antimagic Shield and Charged Shield, I was taking zero damage per round from 4 diseases at once in Melinda's rescue. One strange issue: when he did the Antimagic training test, he didn't get the Antimagic tree unlocked for free, he just got +0.10 mastery on the locked tree. It's not a big deal -- he has plenty of free cat points -- but it was unexpected given how Fungus and Harmony work.

Wild / Harmony - 1/1/0/0 and I wish I had the 2nd point back. The benefit of Elemental Harmony is not worth the risk its sustain cost imposes on my Antimagic Sheild. The first talent was useful before I got Nature damage absorption.

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Prodigies: he's got Mental Tyranny, and it's brilliant as usual. He's got a spare Prodigy slot now, what should he buy?

[Atarlost]

I recommend 5/1/5/0 Fungus and 5/1/1/1 Mindstar.

With high mindpower and a 5 in the third talent you don't use actions to heal or regenerate. You might need to cat point fungus to do this as an adventurer, but it's reachable as a wyrmic or oozemancer.

And on the mindstar front the fourth talent is incredible with fungus. If you turn your regen off right before using it it you get a hit with a nice damage multiplier and a nice chunk of heal (that solipsism partially converts into psi) for far less than an action, possibly free. And it reduces equilibrium if you're running too hot. The second talent is harmless. Equilibrium costs don't matter with Mucus and Fungus and it's cheap anyways. Set it on auto-cast when enemies are adjacent and forget about it. Enemies get slowed with no effort needed, except to cancel activations when you're frozen or give a target when multiple enemies are next to you when it goes off.

On Antimagic, you shouldn't be having trouble. You should set Mucus not on auto-always but on auto-enemy-visible so it's there when you need it rather than on cooldown, put your fungus on 5/1/5 for faster regen and smaller (or no) fractional action loss, and Mindstar on 5/1/1/1 so you have an emergency equilibrium reducer that takes less than a turn. (no time at all at high level)

On the class side more Absorption won't hurt (kinetic and charged because they cover the two damage types antimagic doesn't) and Acid Splash gets a larger radius at TL 4. I'd be tempted to grab dual techniques and 1/1/1/1 it or 1/2/1/1 it for a cheap melee upgrade. I don't know enough to suggest a hate tree, but Earth Drake is a good equilibrium tree. Swallow reduces equilibrium when it kills (and instagibs stuff below 0 health like vampires and heroism infusion abusers), burrow lets you stop worrying about picks, earthquake can create cover, and sand breath blinds.

[sehnsucht]

I suggest at least 1/1/1/5 in cursed/punishment because mental tyranny works well with madness, spend one or two cat points on it.

To make your build more defensive, take wild/ooze as well, bloated oozes can absorb lots of damage, while indescernible anatomy is useful against critical damage and most detrimental effects.

For the second prodigy. spell feedback works well as a mage killer, it also inflict madness effects.

I think this build is still not defensive enough yet. If I were you, I would choose a shalore and give up antimagic, take at least 1/0/0/0 in chronomancy/speed control so that swapping weapon sets takes no time, and spent 2 prodigy slots on spectral shield and eternal guard.

Here's my idea: Dual mindstars for the 1st weapon set, weapon and shield for the 2nd. Swap to set 2, activate block and timeless, then swap back to set 1. Now you have a block effect against any damage and lasts 7 turns, which doesn't end when hit. Combined with psionic/absorption, nothing will hurt you. If you use a tier 5 shield, the cooldown of block is only 3 turns, so that you'll be nearly invincible even without timeless. The counterattack effect helps you hit harder, too.

[Doctornull]

I recommend 5/1/5/0 Fungus and 5/1/1/1 Mindstar.

With high mindpower and a 5 in the third talent you don't use actions to heal or regenerate. You might need to cat point fungus to do this as an adventurer, but it's reachable as a wyrmic or oozemancer.

And on the mindstar front the fourth talent is incredible with fungus. If you turn your regen off right before using it it you get a hit with a nice damage multiplier and a nice chunk of heal (that solipsism partially converts into psi) for far less than an action, possibly free. And it reduces equilibrium if you're running too hot. The second talent is harmless. Equilibrium costs don't matter with Mucus and Fungus and it's cheap anyways. Set it on auto-cast when enemies are adjacent and forget about it. Enemies get slowed with no effort needed, except to cancel activations when you're frozen or give a target when multiple enemies are next to you when it goes off.

On Antimagic, you shouldn't be having trouble. You should set Mucus not on auto-always but on auto-enemy-visible so it's there when you need it rather than on cooldown, put your fungus on 5/1/5 for faster regen and smaller (or no) fractional action loss, and Mindstar on 5/1/1/1 so you have an emergency equilibrium reducer that takes less than a turn. (no time at all at high level)

On the class side more Absorption won't hurt (kinetic and charged because they cover the two damage types antimagic doesn't) and Acid Splash gets a larger radius at TL 4. I'd be tempted to grab dual techniques and 1/1/1/1 it or 1/2/1/1 it for a cheap melee upgrade. I don't know enough to suggest a hate tree, but Earth Drake is a good equilibrium tree. Swallow reduces equilibrium when it kills (and instagibs stuff below 0 health like vampires and heroism infusion abusers), burrow lets you stop worrying about picks, earthquake can create cover, and sand breath blinds.

I have no Equilibrium issues thanks to Mucus and Mucus and Fungus and Mucus, but I do like more attack options... hmm. Also my Strength sucks, after the Wyrm Bile I have 9 Str (and none of my gear boosts it, either), so Wyrmic trees sound unattractive.

I really like the idea of Thorns Grab as auto-cast, that sounds useful and convenient. Sold!

I'll plow more points into Fungus and Mindstars as you suggest.

I suggest at least 1/1/1/5 in cursed/punishment because mental tyranny works well with madness, spend one or two cat points on it.
(...)
For the second prodigy. spell feedback works well as a mage killer, it also inflict madness effects.

Spellcasters do seem to be my biggest problem right now, so this makes a lot of sense.

I don't know how much value I'd get from Ooze at this point... I've got 10 summoned slimes, which IIRC is (or is almost) the global summon limit? Is that correct?

Madness + Spell Feedback sounds pretty neat.

Here's my idea: Dual mindstars for the 1st weapon set, weapon and shield for the 2nd. Swap to set 2, activate block and timeless, then swap back to set 1. Now you have a block effect against any damage and lasts 7 turns, which doesn't end when hit. Combined with psionic/absorption, nothing will hurt you. If you use a tier 5 shield, the cooldown of block is only 3 turns, so that you'll be nearly invincible even without timeless. The counterattack effect helps you hit harder, too.

That sounds disgustingly good. Irrelevant for this thread, of course, but very interesting for a different topic. Thanks!


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Okay, looks like I'll be going with:
- Class points: Absorption, Punishments
- Generic points: Mindstar Mastery, Fungus
- Prodigy: Spell Feedback

Thank you!

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

There is not a global summon limit, just a wilder summon limit. Oozes (both types) and the summoning trees both count against this, and it is based off your cunning. You can easily add other sources of summoning, that are non-wilder. Specifically, necromancy for the minions is a solid choice, giving you a big nasty crowd to shield you. (And not count against your oozes). Less effective are thought forms (1? Unless you went for the damage mitigation on defender, which would be a 12 point investment not particularly useful. Probably too expensive) or Alchemy golem. (Not particularly good without more significant investment.)

Shadows could work well, minimal investment for 4 extra meat shields.

[Doctornull]

There is not a global summon limit, just a wilder summon limit. Oozes (both types) and the summoning trees both count against this, and it is based off your cunning. You can easily add other sources of summoning, that are non-wilder. Specifically, necromancy for the minions is a solid choice, giving you a big nasty crowd to shield you. (And not count against your oozes). Less effective are thought forms (1? Unless you went for the damage mitigation on defender, which would be a 12 point investment not particularly useful. Probably too expensive) or Alchemy golem. (Not particularly good without more significant investment.)

Shadows could work well, minimal investment for 4 extra meat shields.

That's awesome, thanks for clearing that up for me!

I'm an Adventurer so my mastery is only 1.0 (or 1.2 at most), and I think that means I'm limited to 3 little shadow buddies, but that's still quite good for 1 or 2 cat points and 16 talent points.

If I am limited to 3 shadows, is it worth putting 2 cat points in Shadows?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Think you are limited to 3, though you could get 4 from mastery bonuses. (I assume you will be wielding the almighty umbraphage, which boosts shadows, which would get you to 4 with a cat point or mastery amulet.) But whether a cat point is worth it for one shadow, when you're already reliant on equipment, well....

For meatshields, necro minions might be better, but I'm not sure how much investment they would take. Lord knows they'd generate more then 3.

[Doctornull]

Think you are limited to 3, though you could get 4 from mastery bonuses. (I assume you will be wielding the almighty umbraphage, which boosts shadows, which would get you to 4 with a cat point or mastery amulet.) But whether a cat point is worth it for one shadow, when you're already reliant on equipment, well....

For meatshields, necro minions might be better, but I'm not sure how much investment they would take. Lord knows they'd generate more then 3.

I think Necro is not possible because I went with Antimagic on this character.

Also unfortunately I haven't yet found Umbraphage, and I'm in the Slime Tunnels so it's probably not gonna happen... maybe if I go grind Farportal realms or something, but I don't really want to grind for specific gear at this stage.

But still, 3 strong Shadows sounds like a good use of my talent points.

I can probably fit that and Punishments in, since high-level Shadows are Hate generators.

[sehnsucht]

Doctornull, will mucus slime attacks become mind damage when mental tyranny activated?

[Doctornull]

Doctornull, will mucus slime attacks become mind damage when mental tyranny activated?

No, they still attack as Nature, which is a pity.

But the damage from Acid Splash and the poison from Mucus itself are both Mind damage.

[sehnsucht]

No, they still attack as Nature, which is a pity.

But the damage from Acid Splash and the poison from Mucus itself are both Mind damage.

What a pity, Then the build on my mind is not going to work.

[Doctornull]

Quadbar's 2nd death was at the hands of Whats-his-skull-face the Neverdead. It was really ugly: he hit me with spike damage all over the place, my mucus wasn't affecting him, etc.

Before the unblinking face of the Eidolon, brave Quadbar assigned his 3 category points (1 in Punishments, 2 in Shadows -- otherwise he was only going to get TWO shadows instead of the expected THREE), many class talent points (5/1/5/1 Shadows, 1/1/1/2 Punishments), put 4 points in Fungus / Ancestral, and 1 in Thorn Grab. He also spent his free Prodigy point on Spell Feedback.

Thus girded for war, Quadbar returned to face the lich.

This time it was not easy, but it was doable. The lich promptly cast some big nasty spell and ate Spell Feedback's spell failure chance for 25 rounds. I hit him with Agony, and then all my other weapons, and some of the status conditions stuck this time, possibly thanks to Madness.

This lich wasn't a walk-through, I had to actually hit buttons other than "bump attack", but it fell none the less before my oozy brain-locking psiblades.

Now Quadbar is making his way through High Peak, and he's just hit level 49. I'll report back on any trouble with particularly nasty stair bosses, and I'll report on the final battle, which I hope to win.

Cheers! Thanks for the advice, everyone!

[Doctornull]

None of the stair bosses were particularly nasty so far as I could tell.

The final fight was never in question: my small army of shadows and slimes were fine distractions while I wailed on the Sorcerers. Both went down pretty swiftly.

My first Tactical Mastery victory (because I remembered to not close portals even if I walk over them while chasing down a scardy-cat Sorcerer).

[sehnsucht]

grats, my insane roguelike summoner is finally dead, he cleared 2 prides before meeting his end. Better than I excepted. After all, It is my best insane run.

I think I'll try my eternal guard idea this time.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Now, go back and just tank the room of death. No cowardly luring them away one at a time, Just stand there and man-mode them all at once.

Then do Athy the same way.

Then hit the ID and go on forever (You DO have I500, right?). Be interesting to see how far this gets when it can start pumping talents over the max. (Would help with shadows, especially.)