ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Reaper

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Posts: 2257
Location: New Zealand
Hi

The chosen class is: Fighter

A short week for the first one, but I will ensure that future ones are more lengthy...

This has come up as a result of this thread

Can everyone try running a fighter and posting feedback here on how you found running one. I would be particularly interested in the Schools, and Talents and how you found them, but also in any other problems and issues.

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Jon.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:02 am 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10477
Location: Angolwen
Great Idea, I concur!

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:43 am 
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Higher

Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:35 pm
Posts: 47
Just finished my fighter...want my thoughts anyway? :p


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:46 am 
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Reaper

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:21 am
Posts: 2257
Location: New Zealand
Yes, please.

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Jon.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:20 am 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:16 pm
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Oh MM, how I love you for this. I need to take the cheat code out so I can post up my [probable without too much fuss] last dungeon/winner righter I'm planning. No restriction on race, ya?

I LOVE and am very good with fighters... :D

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:16 pm
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http://te4.org/characters/313/tome/5164 ... 1cc000edf0

I knew he was either going to win with general ease or die to something stupid. :roll:

Now then, I will go into each of the trees offered to fighters, and give my thoughts on them. I will propose changes if I feel there should be change, and will also say if I feel the tree should even be given to fighters at all. I will NOT talk about other trees.

Alright, time to talk about the talents.

Archer Tree
As a whole - I don't see a fighter ever needing to use any of the talents. Sure, they scale well with the stats that a fighter will normally raise - but they just aren't very good. Steady Shot is the best one and is just a beefed up Shot anyway - which you can get for 8 gold. Also, using a launcher at all as a fighter is a big gamble anyway - you lose Shield Pummel, Riposte, Assault, Shield Wall, Last Stand --- all your talents that you kinda need/want. I agree - carrying around something like a Mighty Dragonbone Bow of Power isn't a bad idea - but investing any points, let alone a category point into the tree is just not needed. The talents you would gain is not nearly as high in worth as what you would be losing otherwise.

Proposed Changes:
Just remove it from the Fighter talent tree options OR have it not be locked at birth

Weapon and Shield Tree
This is your main focus, this is where you get your attacks and defensive abilities. If you cannot utilize these two trees because of using a secondary tree that does not have matching requirements as this one, I instantly do not think it is a good idea [ie Archery tree and 2handed Tree]. On with the talents!

Shield Pummel
Shield Pummel is your main attack talent. It's two shield bashes, which means two attacks a turn [good], and it stuns [very good] with a decent scaling in damage & stun duration [very very good]. It has a low stamina cost and a short cool down making it effectively your best talent for attacking, better than both Assault and Shattering Shout. In any fight that you will probably be damaged in more than 10% of your life/what you can regen during the fight - you should open up with a Shield Pummel and avoid the fuss altogether. However, it doesn't need two separate damage amounts as they are both shield bashes, this should probably be removed.

Proposed Changes:
Fix the description saying two different damage types, other wise it's good!

Riposte
Riposte is good. It's cool because as a fighter - you'll not be getting hit in melee often or ignoring the damage enough that it's voided. Riposte makes all those missed attacks against you matter - as you get a free attack against what missed you. The % chance of this triggering FINALLY scales better than it used to - but I think the cap of 60% chance was lowered to 50%. I have, many times in the past, gotten four or five Ripostes off in a single turn - it is a really good PASSIVE talent. You only need to invest one point in it at first though - as there are much better class talent options at character level 4-20. But you really should drop your level 4 class point into it - the longer you have Riposte the better it is.

Proposed Changes:
None - it's good!

Overpower
Frankly - this is your second worse core class based attack talent. It's three attacks, which is very nice, but they are very weak attacks and they then cause Knockback. Now, knockback ACTUALLY isn't a bad status effect to use - even as a fighter. But the situations to use the knockback effect are rather slim. Also, the stamina cost of 22 seems very high, very high in deed, especially as Assault is only 16 and is also 3 attacks [with double auto crit!]. I would lower the stamina cost to a more reasonable 16 and make Assault's cost go up to 20. [and yes, I am keeping in mind the impact that this has with Sun Paladins]. This would make Assault not be strictly better than Overpower, and would balance them out. Also, as I said earlier, Overpower's %damage and it's scaling is far too low. Even with the change in stamina cost I wouldn't really use it as it's damage is too low. Raise each % of the damage it deals by about 7% more per talent level and I'll probably consider it, along with the overall damage nerf coming next beta, that should make Overpower - with it's multiple attacks [which multi-attacking will start to matter more as you won't kill things with 1/2 attacks anymore] a much more viable option.

Proposed Changes:
Stamina - 16
Damage - Increase %damage by ~7% more than what it already is

Assault
Assault is really good, it's your secondary attacking talent usually, after Shield Pummel. The sole reason behind this though is purely because it's last two hits are auto criticals - making your damage about 5.5x greater than if you were to just bump attack. But, even with that taken into account - it's really only needed to put single point into Assault. It's damage, just like Overpower's, scales terribly. Like I stated in Overpower's review, Assault could go with having it's stamina cost raised to 20, and probably increasing it's cool down to 10 - so that doing a 7 turn double assault + shield pummel boss death isn't so easy. With these nerfs to it's cost and cool down, it could then do with a bit of a change with how it functions. I would prefer for it [balance reasons] - to be 3 attacks as it stands now, but only the last one be an auto crit. Have the %damage scale about 5% higher per talent level than it does now, and then at tlvl 5 - have the second attack auto crit. Over all, it's a pretty serious nerf to an otherwise 1-point wonder talent - but I feel that these changes would in the end make the talent BETTER in use/power - and more balanced. Also, with the promise of double crit again at an invested amount of points - it would lure people into actually investing in it.

Proposed Changes:
Stamina - 20
Cooldown - 10
Damage - Increase %damage by ~5% more than what it already is

Repulsion
As stated here - /viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24054 - Repulsion needs a serious buff as it is the WORST core class talent that a Fighter has, and is one of the worse talents in the game regardless of that. All it is is a personal ball knockback with a radius of 1. It scales with the distance the adjacent actors are knocked back. No damage, no not using it on certain actors, it just does it. Now, that would make it a very defensive talent you would think, right? Well, it is - but in the wrong sense. See - it's considered an attack, so you have to roll your accuracy vs their defense, then you get to check your 'power' of the talent against the effected actors Physical Save, then if they are not effected, they get to have their Knockback Resistance check - and if they fail that too - then they get knocked back, at tlvl 1 - ... 2 tiles. So, a fast moving npc like a snake - can - the turn it fails at negating Repulsion - move BACK to where it was, and STILL attack you. Ya, really good right? Well, I have a slew of proposed changes to make -
First - if you want to keep it a defensive talent, the knockback distance needs to be increased by atleast 1 per talent level higher than it already is - that means a starting knockback of 3. Then - I'd lower the Stamina cost - 30 [drop to 15 is a lot - especially for a class that won't have much stamina any way as they will not [most likely] be investing in Willpower [and willpower does little for stamina anyway] - and that will also most likely have a stamina high enough to double the cost of all stamina abilities. Next - drop the cooldown to 7 instead of 10 - that way you have a bit of a pattern, SP is at 6, Repulsion is at 7, Overpower is at 8 and Assault is at 10.

If you wish to add some offensive ability to it - I'd make the stamina be at 20 with a cooldown of 9, and a damage scaling of 40% + 10% per talent level - making it [without scaling with stats [STRENGTH PLEASE]] cap at 90% base SHIELD damage. Making it weaker than your normal bump attack, but applicable against all adjacent NPCs. I would still increase the knockback distance by 1 - otherwise it's just like a mini physical Blastwave really.

Personally, I would opt for it to gain some damage.

Proposed Changes:
Add Damage - Make the base damage be 40% + 10% per tlvl with it scaling with Strength and the damage function from the Shield damage value.
Knockback - Increase the range of the knockback by 1 - and/or better yet, make the range function off of the size difference between you and the npcs
Stamina - 20
Cooldown - 9

Shield Wall
This is, in my opinion, either the 1st, 2nd or 3rd best defensive ability in the game. [The others are currently Acid Blood and either the 4 elemental damage resists from the SP/Anorthil chant or Retribution]. The increase in defense and armor is high, and the 10 point penalty to attack and damage isn't felt at all once you hit about lvl 15 or so. The ONLY beef I have with the talent is it's pretty worthless until you hit effective level 5 - as with effective level 4 + max dex the armor/def boost is still good, but you will get something like 4 more points in each with the extra point. AND you don't get stun/knockback immune. So - I have a basic recommendation. In order to encourage people to use it as they invest in it - spread the stun/knockback resist out - something like 20% per tlvl - so that you still get that ever important immunity - but the talent is still useful at lower levels.

- BONUS PROPOSAL -
Instead of just putting flat %resist on stun/knockback - increase physical save! Increase physical save by about 15 points per tlvl [based on beta18 saves data/play experience] - that way you don't have a sure fire save against stun/knockback - but you have a much better chance against ALL physically inflicted status'

Proposed Changes:
Make the stun/knockback res scale with investment, starting at 20% and increasing by 20% per point
OR
Increase physical save by ~15 points per point invested - to simulate % resist but make it not be so narrow

Shield Expertise
Shield Expertise is a very valuable talent for a Fighter - it effects the damage that your shield does [which your shield does damage currently in Shield Pummel, Assualt and Overpower] - and the bonus that you get from Shield Wall, along with granting you paltry physical and spell saves. This should be maxed right after you get SW up to a decent level as SE effects so many of your talents directly. I have only 1 change in mind -

Proposed Changes
Increase the physical and spell saves granted - as [beta18] saves need to be really high to get noticed - Increasing them by ~10 & 7 respectively might make the naturally high saves of a fighter start to matter [especially physical if you take into account the proposal for SW]


Last Stand
Last Stand needs to grant more Max_Life and heal all of the temporary hp when activated. Right now, it's not so great, also because the defense increase is ... rather low. If something that is meant to be paired directly with SW and be thematic - it needs a bigger boost. I'm thinking double the temporary life, and maybe tack on an extra 3/4/5 defense or so per tlvl. That'd make it at least moderately useful I suppose.

Proposed Changes
Max Life - Instead of * 0.25 make it * 0.50 and we'll be looking at a decent boost hopefully
- Heal the temporary hp granted - and on sustain drop deal that much damage down to a current hp of 1 at max
Defense - I'd raise the defense from 5 to maybe 8 - or make it scale better with dex [5 instead of 4]

2handed Weapon Tree
What applies to the archery tree pretty much directly applies to this tree for Fighters, only more so. Unlike with using a launcher - you do not get additional range - you are still stuck at melee range. You lose all your good talents [SP, Assault, SW, Shield Expertise] and in place you get 20% more damage ... and Death Dance - which is like an offensive Shield Wall sorta, Berserker which is a more direct inverse to Shield Wall, Warshout which is a confusion effect [nice], and Death Blow which will drain all of your precious stamina. I, personally, do not see a need to EVER lose your defense for extra damage, especially for when the talents offered go directly against what your class is designed to be. At least if you use a bow you are partially protected from damage due to range [though a sling is better as you can still Shield Wall!]. I don't see any reason for a Fighter to even have this tree as an option.

Proposed Changes
Remove the tree entirely from Fighter options

Combat Techniques Tree
This is actually a 2 part tree, and the two separate parts differ greatly.

Precise Strikes
This is a talent that has been discussed for ages, changed many times and it still isn't good enough. Very very few classes have a need for even higher accuracy [especially from class points] - and the +crit% is too low to be noticed - especially when factoring in the attack speed reduction. The +attack needs to be increased to either 6 [instead of 4] or be divided by 10 [instead of 15]. The crit divisor could also be dropped to 20.

Proposed Changes
Make it better, stronger - Increase the attack bonus and the crit % chance - or even BETTER - make it a crit multiplier!

Rush
Rush, simply, is too good and bad at the same time. It's movement is an absolute necessity to Fighters and to most other classes that can get it without too much fuss - but the cooldown and cost is just too high to be used often. Lowering the cooldown as you invest points [like how the range increases with points] would go a long way to making Rush an actually useful general combat talent rather than a rather specialized one.

Proposed Changes
Decreasing Cooldown - Decrease the cooldown from base 40 by 3 per point, making it end at 25 cooldown

Perfect Strike
Perfect Strike is perfectly terrible. The bonus to attack isn't really needed as most classes that would bother investing in it either A) shouldn't be attacking physically or B) Already have super high attack. I have a few ideas but I'm sure none of them are all that great. In addition to the high attack bonus, put in something like 100 APR as well along with an increase to crit modifier. That way it REALLY is a 'perfect strike' - almost 100% chance to hit, along with no armor going into effect, and if you happen to crit, the crit is quiet good. This, along with it's short duration I feel would be much better. The cost is good, and with these buffs the cooldown is a good balance between use and over use.

Proposed Changes
More Precise - Add in 100 APR to match the 100 Attack bonus
Make it count - Add in an increasing crit multiplier - maybe starting at 4% and increasing by ~4% per point invested - making it end at 20%. That would make [as there is no actual %crit chance increase] the talent REALLY feel like a perfect strike to me.

Blinding Speed
As far as I'm concerned, Blinding Speed is good. I just never use it as I have to put a point into Perfect strike to get to this, and perfect strike is bad enough for a fighter currently that it's not worth Blinding speed to invest a point into it. That would change with the proposals for Perfect strike though I'm sure.

Proposed Changes
None - we're good actually

Quick Recovery
This is finally about where it should be. I like it, it regens well, I think it's good. Except not all classes that can get this tree care about stamina - but all classes care about life. So instead of forcing them to take a talent that may not even really apply to them, I say swap it with Fast Metabolism.

Proposed Changes
Swap places with Fast Metabolism.

Fast Metabolism
This is finally about where it should be. I like it, it regens well, I think it's good. See Quick Recovery for reasons to swap this with QR.

Proposed Changes
Swap places with Quick Recovery

Spell Shield
Honestly, this is utter garbage as well. It only increases Spell save, and by 6 only - ending at +30. I would perhaps change it's name and make it grant saves to all 3 saves and have them scale by 8 per talent level - that way we have an in earnest way to increase Mental save and make this talent better without breaking it.

Proposed Changes
Change it up - Change the name to something that implies it effects all saves, or even just spell/mental
Power it up - Increase the amount of the save, with it increasing by atleast ~8 per point invested

Unending Frenzy
I see this one as spot on - it's not TOO useful for a fighter in my experience, but most of the other classes that can get it [Berserker in particular] - it's a good investment.

Proposed Changes
None - we're good actually

Combat Training Tree
This is the uber passive tree that everyone knows and everyone buys - mostly though just for the Health talent or Heavy Armor.

Heavy Armor Training
I think this is actually okay, except I think the bonus to armor and the crit % reduction should apply to ALL equipment items flagged as requiring Heavy Armor - that way the gloves/boots/helm won't be so bleh when comparing them to artifacts that generally do not have such a requirement.

Proposed Changes
Make it apply to all items that are flagged as requiring Heavy Armor to use

Massive Armor Training
Apply the same changes as heavy armor so that it applies to the very few non body slot items that require massive armor training to wear - and I would also increase the armor value a bit - as Heavy Armor Training is actually quiet a bit better over all than this.

Proposed Changes
Increase the multiplier by 2 for both the armor increase and crit reduction and have the bonuses apply to all equipment items that have the requirement of Massive Armor Training

Health
In order to make Health better than the amount of points required to take it, I suggest making Health be a % of max default life [so that things that grant temporary hp don't go into effect] - and have the bonus recalculate on Constitution change along with Level Up. Maybe something like 5/5/5/5/5% so a bonus of +25% hp at tlvl 5 instead of only 200 hp. That would make it more useful to classes that have naturally high hp, and I think it would be better even for the lower hp classes as well. Along with the change in damage, I think having a scaling effect would better help balance that out. Also, with this change, it won't be random large jumps of hp, but rather small gradual increases.

Proposed Changes
Scale it up - Make it a % scale of max default hp of 5% for each point invested
Add it up - Make sure the actual amount of hp granted is recalculated with changes in Constitution and at Level up

Weapon Combat
WC isn't great, but it's good enough. If it increased the attack by too much more it would probably throw things too far out of balance, though if it scaled better through out and didn't grant so much with the first few points it would be better.

Proposed Changes
Keep the amount it gives, but have the amount spread out more evenly between points

Weapon Mastery/Knife Mastery
The two mastery talents are pretty much the same thing as WC - so the same thing applies.

Proposed Changes
Keep the amount it gives, but have the amount spread out more evenly between points

Superiority
This, in my mind, is a very Berserker tailored tree, but it does have it's merits for Fighters.

Juggernaut
Now this is a talent that could be really good, but is held back some. The duration is good, as is the cooldown. The amount it resists is okay as an activate, capping at 25% physical res. But the cost seems high at 60 stamina. I dunno, it's good, but it could be better. Making it cost only 45 stamina would go a long way with persuading me to use it/more often.

Proposed Changes
If I would change it, I would make it cost only 45 stamina, as that's a bit more manageable.

Onslaught
I don't like the talent so I don't use it. Though, I do see it's uses. I have almost no experience with this so I have no changes to make.

Proposed Changes
I lack experience with this so I won't say anything

Battle Call
To put it frankly, this is a purely awesome talent for both a Fighter and a Berserker, though a berserker more so. However, I think the cost and cooldown should be swapped - The cost - especially when wearing a boat load of stuff [high fatigue] is just WAY too high, and the cooldown is so short that you haven't hacked through all the npcs that you called to you by the time you can use it again.

Proposed Changes
Swap the cost and cooldown
Cost - 15
Cooldown - 15

Shattering Impact
This is THE REASON to invest in this tree. This talent is almost broken for Berserkers, but is actually just moderately useful for fighters. It creates a 1 radius ball effect for your melee attacks, that do a <100% damage than the initial attack [yes, criticals increase this 'splash' damage!]. So, a solid berserker will pop unstopable + battle call + shattering impact + death dance [which then results in a 2 radius ball!] and probably killing all npcs and regerating all the stamina they just used. Now, this isn't the case for a Fighter - in fact, the 15 stamina drain on a fighter can be a very bad thing. You could have this on and Riposte over and over in a turn, quickly drinking your stamina [which you cannot regen as fast as a berserker can], and that can force you to drop the ever so important SW. Over all, this is a GREAT talent.

Proposed Changes
None - this is a great talent with a great use of design space. Actually.. I wonder if the AB spell sling on melee hit can trigger multiple times off of this ...

War Cries Tree
Now this is a very good locked tree for all the classes that have it -

Shattering Shout
This thing is amazing. At the first level it's a radius 3 cone, so it's about the same size as Gwai's Burnintaor - but at lvl 5 it's a radius 8[!!] cone - making it HUGE. And I mean HUGE. The damage is also a nice amount. The cooldown of 7 is resonable, and the cost of 20 is also fair. This is a great AOE type talent for a Fighter - and it will probably be your only ranged attack as well. One problem - it should scale off of constitution instead of strength - a stronger body [insides] make for a more powerful yell, not stronger muscles.

Proposed Changes
Make it scale with con instead of str and we are freaking SET. I love this talent

Second Wind
Second Wind is a much needed talent for those stamina based classes that don't regenerate stamina at 220% like a berserker can. It recovers a good amount - but the cooldown is just way too high. Cut it to just above half of what it is now - 85 and I can see it being a bit more useful for those really long fights against pits/breeders/summoners/splitters/large escorting bosses.

Proposed Changes
Cut the cooldown to ~85 and we are good to go

Battle Shout
Eh, it's fine. The duration could use an additional few turns per tlvl but other than that it's good.

Proposed Changes
Add in ~3 more turns of duration for each point invested and we should be really well off. It's decent, but could be better.

Battle Cry
Thematically this is good, but use wise it's not. It only lowers defense [which attack opposes and the classes that will invest in this will probably either not meant to be that close to npcs or already have REALLY high attack anyway so... ya]

Proposed Changes
I've got no idea - thematically it's cool, but it needs something.

Field Control
This is a second universally great tree for all classes that already have stamina, or could really use a way to sense/move.

Disengage
One of the best mobility talents in the game - and it requires a stat that a fighter will max anyway! The distance that it travels is good, the cooldown & cost is good. This is a well designed talent. BUG: The target doesn't have to be within the range for the movement to take effect.

Proposed Changes
None other than the bug fix.

Track
This is essentially Heightened Senses for those that don't want to invest in Cun - but a little bit better as it's actually more like the previous Sense spell. It's great, all the numbers are where they should be.

Proposed Changes
This is a great talent and implemented well - no changes.

Heave
Heave is like a worse Repulsion except this knock backs individuals better. It's fine except the cost seems too high at 30 - maybe 20 is better.

Proposed Changes
Edit down the cost to ~20 so that it doesn't hit you so hard to just buy yourself a few more turns.

Slow Motion
Slow motion is AWESOME if you can support the radical cost of 120 - though this is seriously worth it if you are light on hp and/or armor/def and are more of a dodge like player. This can slow down projectiles [bolts/arrows/bolt spells] to an utter crawl giving you a LOAD of time to get out of the way.

Proposed Changes
This is good, the cost, while high, is suitable for the power of this.

Survival Tree
The one tree that I think every class gets.

Trap Detection
As you really have no where to put generic points in after about level 40, there's no reason to - if you have the cun - to not put a single point in. However, at that time, you'd need TD at 4/5 to see the traps that you are getting hit with now.

Proposed Changes
It's good. The classes that will raise cun will get it, the ones that won't will probably put a point - it's fine as far as I can tell.

Heightened Senses
While a great talent, you are probably better off not putting points in this unless you are raising Cun for another reason as the stat increase starts to get a bit high.

Proposed Changes
None, it's good. Those that will get it will get it, those that won't will find infravision else where, or just have a huge light radius.

Trap Disarm
I have never successfully disarmed a trap - but then again I haven't ever really put points into this to try to.

Proposed Changes
As I haven't used this much, I have nothing to say. [Lack of Experience]

Evasion
With the change to Evasion in 19, this is a fantastic talent.

Proposed Changes
With 19's change, nothing needs to be done here. Great talent.

Dirty Fighting
The stable of rogue builds comes to a fighter! How does it pair up though? For rogue classes, this is great, not so for fighters as much. I would keep the tree as locked on fighters, but I doubt many would use it unless we get a new 'cunning fighter' tree to give more reason for fighters to invest in the otherwords 'bad' stat of cun.

Dirty Fighting
Unfortunitally - this runs off of cun, and as a fighter you won't really be investing much in cun. However, this is really the only talent in the whole tree that I could see a fighter getting [but then that makes using a cat point on this a rather bad idea]. A second stun, especially a long duration stun as this, isn't bad for a fighter, but with the other trees you most likely have better options for a turn than this.

Proposed Changes
For rogue classes, this is great, not so for fighters as much.

Backstab
Now then, if you invested a category point into Dirty Fighting, and then maxed out Shield Pummel AND Dirty Fighting, I can see, if you are really going to invest into cun, putting points into Backstab as well to increase your crit chance. However, with the dual auto crit nature of Assualt - it kinda voids that strategy.

Proposed Changes
For rogue classes, this is great, not so for fighters as much.

Switch Place
I'm sure you'll see a pattern here: This is a FANTASTIC, GREAT talent, completely useable and good at what it does, but as a fighter, you don't need short mobility like this often. Also, the investment into cun is starting to get very high here.

Proposed Changes
For rogue classes, this is great, not so for fighters as much.

Cripple
Finally, last talent. This - is really the best thing rogues have going for them as an offensive defensive talent - but unfortunately the things that it lowers are directly what fighters will excel at. Thus, the effect is kind of moot. It's a great talent, but not so for fighters.

Proposed Changes
For rogue classes, this is great, not so for fighters as much.

Now then, with that out of the way [sorry for probably the longest post on these boards], we can start talking about them. :D

FM

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:44 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm
Posts: 1396
Quote:
Proposed Changes:
Just remove it from the Fighter talent tree options OR have it not be locked at birth


I don't agree with this mindset. Just because something is not optimal doesn't mean it should not be offered as an option. If someone wants to build a hybrid fighter/archer, they should be allowed to invest the points to do that.

Quote:
Perfect Strike is perfectly terrible.


I've used it against the Dread in the Antimagic quest, sometimes. It's certainly not optimal to waste a class point just for one monster, but... hey, at least it's a class point (we get plenty of those) and not a precious generic point!

Quote:
As you really have no where to put generic points in after about level 40


Antimagic, antimagic, antimagic, antimagic....


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:56 am
Posts: 1049
Just here to say that swapping the shield wall stun resist to physical save would be a *major* debuff, and I am not a fan of it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Fri May 21, 2010 8:16 pm
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The archery tree does nothing that a fighter can't already do - though I will say a fighter with a sling + shield + rapid fire + aim + precise strikes + shield wall + last stand COULD be really good - but it's such an out there and hard to play build that I don't see a player doing it. The tree itself doesn't have much if any value to a fighter - sure, to an actual launcher class yes - but to a fighter? I don't think so.

greycat wrote:
cut for space


Note, I said, at the VERY beginning of my post -

Final Master wrote:
Now then, I will go into each of the trees offered to fighters, and give my thoughts on them. I will propose changes if I feel there should be change, and will also say if I feel the tree should even be given to fighters at all. I will NOT talk about other trees.


Meaning, trees at birth. I hope you noticed I didn't talk about escort trees nor the sand worm tree -


And yes, Sirrocco, it would be a nerf with the current save system - but saves are suppose to actually matter and not need to be 1567899745646579 to do anything next beta. I would prefer a 35% save against all status effects that run off of physical save than 100% to only 2.

Also, I'm going to trim down the post to just the proposals as it's been pointed out to me that a lot of people won't bother with the post due to it's length...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:53 am 
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Halfling

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Final Master wrote:
Also, I'm going to trim down the post to just the proposals as it's been pointed out to me that a lot of people won't bother with the post due to it's length...


Actually, I've always been frustrated with fighters and don't play them much, so I appreciated the insight into them your post brings.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:23 am 
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Retired Ninja

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I just want to chime in and agree with greycat here. I used the same logic for the Temporal Warden's design when I gave it the option to learn Lethality. If someone wants to try to build a Dex/Cunning Temporal Warden and use a sling and double daggers I think that's a viable route... it's not optimal and the class probably won't turn out as powerful as it would learning the bow tree instead but people like options and people like to try unusual builds.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:15 pm 
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Sher'Tul

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We've disgareed on this point before, FinalMaster. I know that you like to construct your theoretical builds using only the trees available at birth, presumably because you're using cheat mode to boost yourself to level 50 without doing any of the quests necessary to unlock the additional trees.

In many, many cases the results you get by doing this are not representative of the way an actual character would be built by someone playing the game and doing the appropriate quests.

In the case of Fighters specifically, antimagic is a highly desirable set of talents. Omitting these in a supposedly "optimal" build seems specious.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:36 am 
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Sher'Tul

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Y'know, greycat, sometimes people don't get antimagic because they just don't want to spend 10 levels eschewing all magic. It's a good tree to have, for a lot of classes, but I think it's entirely reasonable to posit that a class should be able to stand on its own without having to go through long, involved quests that no starting player will understand until they've hit a bunch of spoilers. As self-imposed limits go, "no bizarre quest kludging" seems a fairly reasonable one.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:39 pm 
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DarkGod has insinuated that the requirements for anti-magic will be far stricter in future too, so it'll be more of a challenge to have.

I like most of your suggestions, FinalMaster. Changing Shield Wall to a phys save is especially a nice idea with the change in saves. However with Overpower/Assault I'd suggest having them start off on lower damage and scale higher. I also think the auto-crits should be removed from Assault and instead it should be a +x% chance of crit, with x increasing with talent level (and never reaching 100 - there should be a reason for crit defense in the game).

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:46 pm 
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You get to the final fight and complain that they suck all round? Hmm...

Anyway, any comments on improvements to the class or ways to rejig any of the talents?

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