ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm
Posts: 1396
My promising level 28 Fighter stomped through the mines of Moria without a problem. Message from the king, Orb, Portal, chat with the Paladin (not a single orc fight on the way), and down to level 4 of the Spider place.

While proceeding through the Spider place with what I thought was reasonable caution, I suddenly found myself at 15 (or possibly 13) HP, poisoned, with a nymph beside me. No, wait, this isn't nethack... it's a naga.

At this point, I was already dead in one move. If I teleported, I'd die to the poison. My only chance was to drink a healing potion and hope to survive the naga's next move with enough HP to teleport away, NOT die to the poison, then cure it and/or heal some more.

I drank my best healing potion ("greater healing" I think it was called), then died to the naga's attack.

Code:
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf is poisoned!
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #aaaaaa#292.80 physical damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #YELLOW#1.80 light damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #DARK_GREY#1.80 darkness damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon uses Sunder Armour.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #aaaaaa#259.05 physical damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #YELLOW#1.80 light damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #DARK_GREY#1.80 darkness damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf resists the sundering!
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf quaffs a potion of greater healing!
[LOG]   You have no more #FFFFFF#potion of greater healing#LAST#.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon uses Stunning Blow.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #aaaaaa#288.56 physical damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon killed Garf!
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #YELLOW#1.80 light damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf hits naga myrmidon for #DARK_GREY#1.80 darkness damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf resists the stunning blow!


So, I'm wondering how the hell I ended up in that position. Did the naga Rush me from beyond my light range? All I can find in the [LOG] lines is this:

Code:
[LOG]   Garf killed giant spider!
[LOG]   Spitting spider hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#13.81 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   You have found a trap (sticky web)!
[LOG]   Garf stops being poisoned.
[LOG]   #00ff00#Talent Shattering Shout is ready to use.
[LOG]   Garf brandishes the Phial of Galadriel and banishes all shadows!
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf is poisoned!
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #aaaaaa#292.80 physical damage#LAST#.
...


Did I step on a trap, become paralyzed, and then the naga attacked me while I was unable to react to (and therefore KNOW about) anything the game was doing? It doesn't say I stepped on a trap. I used the Phial, and then something unknown poisoned me, and then the naga hit me.

OK, so maybe it's not shown in the LOG lines. Let's look at the whole thing, then?

Code:
[LOG]   Garf brandishes the Phial of Galadriel and banishes all shadows!
nil     nil
[Identify]      Phial of Galadriel      true
158 ticks  in 10.218 seconds = 15.4629 TPS
AI took for target      34789   faerlhing       ::      200     Garf    185     
<       400
AI took for target      34793   naga myrmidon   ::      200     Garf    122     
<       400
[Equilibrium] Use chance:       96.666666666667 ::      0
naga myrmidon   34793   dumb ai talents can use Spit Poison     20
naga myrmidon   34793   dumb ai talents can use Rush    88
dumb ai uses    20
[Equilibrium] Use chance:       96.666666666667 ::      0
USING   table: 0x889bb30        Spit Poison
[PROJECTOR] starting dam        26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] after difficulty dam        26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] res 30      0.7      on dam 26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] final dam   18.666666666667
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
[LOG]   Garf is poisoned!
faerlhing       34789   dumb ai talents can use Manathrust      146
[Equilibrium] Use chance:       96.666666666667 ::      0
faerlhing       34789   dumb ai talents can use Lay Web 22
dumb ai uses    22
[Equilibrium] Use chance:       96.666666666667 ::      0
USING   table: 0x887d250        Lay Web
[PROJECTOR] starting dam        26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] after difficulty dam        26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] res 30      0.7      on dam 26.666666666667
[PROJECTOR] final dam   18.666666666667
[LOG]   Something hits Garf for #LIGHT_GREEN#18.67 nature damage#LAST#.
290 frames in 10.014 seconds = 28.9595 FPS
naga myrmidon   34793   dumb ai talents can use Rush    88
dumb ai uses    88
USING   table: 0x893fd20        Rush
[ATTACK] attacking with orite trident
[COMBAT DAMAGE] power(1.819877) totstat(87.600000) talent_mod(1.774597)
[ATTACK] to     Garf     ::     188.60553566988 13      49.1    ::      1.2
checkHit        73      62.8
=> chance to hit        80.535136944662
[ATTACK] raw dam        188.60553566988 versus  49.1    with APR        13
[ATTACK] after range    244
[PHYS CRIT %]   3.5
[ATTACK] after crit     244
[ATTACK] after mult     292.8
[PROJECTOR] starting dam        292.8
[PROJECTOR] after difficulty dam        292.8
[PROJECTOR] res 0       1        on dam 292.8
[PROJECTOR] final dam   292.8
[LOG]   Naga myrmidon hits Garf for #aaaaaa#292.80 physical damage#LAST#.


Does this mean my first guess was right? The naga used Rush on me from outside my light radius, and the game simply didn't report it?

If so, what should I have done to prevent that? Use the Phial every 10 steps (or however long the recharge period is) religiously? I can't even tell when I'm entering a part of the Spider place that's not lit up. It all looks the same.

I'd also appreciate any strategy that would have prevented the naga from using ANOTHER attack on me immediately after the Rush. Are they twice as fast as me? Is that how he got to move twice in a row? Do I need some special secret artifact of going-faster-ness to survive here?

Final dump:
Code:
  [Tome 4.00 @ www.te4.org Character Dump]

Sex              : Male         STR:  66
Race             : Dúnadan     DEX:  38
Class            : Fighter      MAG:  10
Level            : 28           WIL:  15
Exp              : 23%          CUN:  16
Gold             : 219.72       CON:  39

Attack(Main Hand):  97          Life             :     -22/822  Encumbrance      : 120.89/158
Damage(Main Hand): 144          Stamina          :     141/141  Difficulty       : Normal
APR   (Main Hand):  10         
Crit  (Main Hand):  11%         Positive         :     0/111
Crit  (Main Hand):  11%         Negative         :     0/111
Crit  (Main Hand):  11%         
Speed (Main Hand): 1.00         

Fatigue          : 60%          Spellpower       : 10
Armor            : 49.1         Spell Crit       : 2.8%
Defense          : 62.8         Spell Speed      : 1
Ranged Defense   : 62.8         

Physical damage  : 11%
Cold damage      : 25%

Physical Save    : 58.278020196202
Spell Save       : 32.278020196202
Mental Save      : 14.75

Fire Resist: -20%
Cold Resist:  65%
Nature Resist:  30%
Stun Resistance: 100%
Knockback Resistance: 100%

Number of NPC killed: 2237
Most killed NPC: skeleton warrior (88)

  [Talents Chart]

 - Technique / Weapons and shields    (mastery 1.30)
    Shield Pummel (class)             1/5
    Riposte (class)                   5/5
    Overpower (class)                 1/5
    Assault (class)                   1/5
 - Technique / Weapons and shields    (mastery 1.30)
    Repulsion (class)                 1/5
    Shield Wall (class)               5/5
    Shield Expertise (class)          5/5
    Last Stand (class)                0/5
 - Technique / Warcries               (mastery 1.30)
    Shattering Shout (class)          5/5
    Second Wind (class)               1/5
    Battle Shout (class)              0/5
    Battle Cry (class)                0/5
 - Technique / Combat techniques      (mastery 1.30)
    Precise Strikes (class)           1/5
    Rush (class)                      1/5
    Perfect Strike (class)            1/5
    Blinding Speed (class)            0/5
 - Technique / Combat techniques      (mastery 1.49)
    Quick Recovery (class)            1/5
    Fast Metabolism (class)           1/5
    Spell Shield (class)              1/5
    Unending Frenzy (class)           5/5
 - Technique / Combat training        (mastery 1.30)
    Heavy Armour Training (generic)   1/5
    Massive Armour Training (generic) 2/5
    Health (generic)                  2/5
    Weapon Combat (generic)           10/10
    Sword Mastery (generic)           10/10
    Axe Mastery (generic)             0/10
    Mace Mastery (generic)            0/10
    Knife Mastery (generic)           0/10
 - Cunning / Dirty fighting           (mastery 1.00)
    Dirty Fighting (class)            1/5
    Backstab (class)                  0/5
    Switch Place (class)              0/5
    Cripple (class)                   0/5
 - Cunning / Survival                 (mastery 1.00)
    Trap Detection (generic)          1/5
    Heightened Senses (generic)       0/5
    Trap Disarm (generic)             0/5
    Evasion (generic)                 0/5

  [Current Effects]

- Chant of Fortitude
- Hymn of Detection
- Shield Wall
+ Poisoned

  [Completed Quests]

 -- The Island of Dread
You have heard that in the bay of Belfalas, far to the south of Bree, lies the ruined tower of Tol Falas.
There are disturbing rumors of greater undeads and nobody who reached it ever returned.
Perhaps you should explore it and find the truth, and the treasures, for yourself!
 -- A mysterious staff
Deep in the tower of Tol Falas you fought and destroyed the Master, a powerful vampire.
On your way out of Tol Falas you were ambushed by a band of orcs.
They asked about the staff.
 -- An apprentice task
You met a novice mage who was tasked to collect many staves or jewelry.
He asked for your help should you collect some that you do not use.
   * 15/15   
 -- Escort: lone alchemist (level 4 of Old Forest)
Escort the lone alchemist to the recall portal on level 4 of Old Forest.
 -- Escort: lost sun paladin (level 2 of Old Forest)
Escort the lost sun paladin to the recall portal on level 2 of Old Forest.
 -- Into the darkness
It is time to explore some new places dark, forgotten and dangerous ones.
The Old Forest is just south-west of the town of Bree.
The Maze is west of Bree.
The Sandworm Lair is to the far west of Bree, near the sea.
Carn D?m is to the north of Amon S?l.
   * You have explored the Old Forest and vanquished the Old Man Willow.   
   * You have explored the Maze and vanquished the Minotaur.   
   * You have explored the Sandworm Lair and vanquished their Queen.   
   * You have explored Carn D?m and vanquished the Dragon.   
 -- The wild wild east
There must be a way to go into the far east from the lair of Golbug, find it and explore the unknown far east, looking for clues.
 -- Escort: lost anorithil (level 7 of Tol Falas)
Escort the lost anorithil to the recall portal on level 7 of Tol Falas.
 -- Trapped!
You heard a plea for help and decided to investigate...
Only to find yourself trapped inside an unknown tunnel complex.
 -- Let's hunt some Orc
The elder in Minas Tirith sent you to the mines of Moria, deep under the misty mountains, to investigate the orc presence.
Find out if they are in any way linked to the lost staff.
But be careful, even the dwarves did not venture in the old halls for many years.
 --


Edit: the log's truncated because of that bug with the escort quests.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:53 pm
Posts: 1332
Your first guess was right... myrmidons possess a ridiculous rush and I cannot say I am keen to every meet them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:38 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:23 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Hessen, Germany
After the third log snipped it's not just a guess, the naga quite obviously used rush :).

However I'm also confused that he had time to get an additional sunder attack off.
Could it be that the rush _action_ started a turn earlier, so that the Naga was already in his NEXT turn when the rush _result_ happened?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:53 am 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10438
Location: Angolwen
Would a rod/wand/whatever/... of detection have helped/saved you greycat ?

i'm considering implementing some of those

PS: yes myrmidon can rush from far away, a normal maxed rush monster can rush from 10 grids away, a myrmidon from 13. This is more but not gamechanging either

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:11 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm
Posts: 1396
What Fela said. What would've saved me would be not having the naga Rush me and then Sunder me before I could react. Assuming of course I didn't somehow fail to notice the Rush damage, and take a step sideways, leaving the naga still next to me. The log doesn't seem to report movements. I'm still curious about how speed works in this game, though. I haven't figured that one out yet.

A Rush from 13 tiles away seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? Especially if it's north/south -- you can't see monsters that far away in any normal game resolution, except as red dots on the mini-map. Even if you could somehow light up 13 tiles around you. Which you can't, as far as I know.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:28 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10438
Location: Angolwen
Well nagas are kinda .. faster too. 20% faster than a normal NPC/player. So they get one more turn every 5 turns.

Yeah maybe I was a tad harsh with nagas, they are indeed quite deadly :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:29 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10438
Location: Angolwen
But then is it much worse then an off-screen drolem in angband, or landing in a pack of Z ? ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:30 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:07 pm
Posts: 130
Uhrm... I play in 1024*768 with 16x16 tiles (ASCII Mode, but gfx shouldn't change a bit). With these settings I have 36 grids in north/south direction visible on my screen. Probably you should rethink your settings?

But yes: 13 grids rush is evil, but can be countered by detection.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:23 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Hessen, Germany
@DG:
In Angand you can get out of most single bad situation with a teleport (I usually have a staff unless i'm blindness immune). Especially those where you were surprised and didn't get there because of miscalculation in the first place. Also I'm rarely in an environment that i didn't use detection on. Also 3 hit kills in Angband? I'd have a hard time remembering any.


@Patryn:
16x16 is a bit to small for my taste (14'' with 1600*900), i would probably go with 24x24 if that were available, but currently i have to stick to 32x32.

How would you counter the rush with detection? Suppose the field you absolutely have to pass is in a clear rushing path for said Naga and you're a fighter?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Master of Eyal

Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Posts: 10438
Location: Angolwen
You could throw a decoy a few squares away form you to lure monsters in ?
(Decoys do not exist I'm just supposing they cold be usefull)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Retired Ninja

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 3756
The light radius mechanics can be annoying at times. I think the big difference is that monsters in Tome 4 are effectively always generated awake where as in angband monsters are almost always generated asleep.

In other words, creatures in Tome almost always see you before you see them except in fully lit environments like Old Forest and Trollshaws.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way this works is that creatures tend to see you because you're carrying a light source right? In other words the player is constantly giving away his location to any creature with a line of effect?

On the opposing side creatures never (to my knowledge) have light effects the player can see.

I think the solution is to level the playing field by making the majority of NPC light sources visible to the player or giving the player more options for exploring dark environments.

Some ideas on the second part...

Dark Light - An ego or artifact modifier for lanterns and other light effects that makes your light source invisible beyond it's radius.

Make Infravision more common (maybe dwarves and undead should get this as a racial?). Make scrolls of enemies detect cheaper. Make some items of sense that don't require recharging (artifacts).

As to the 16x16 vs 32x32 argument.

I play on 16x16 and personally I spend more time staring at my mini-map then the game screen. When I see a red dot I hit tab or shift+mouse drag myself over to see what it is. I've tried playing on 32x32 but agree that it's to small.

If there was a resolution in the middle I'd probably use that.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:54 pm 
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Wayist

Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:50 pm
Posts: 21
Heightened Senses might help you detect them earlier.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:04 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:55 pm
Posts: 1091
What good would that do the aforementioned fighter though?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:11 am
Posts: 683
darkgod wrote:
You could throw a decoy a few squares away form you to lure monsters in ?
(Decoys do not exist I'm just supposing they cold be usefull)


Yeh summoners do that all the time. Its fun at the beginning at the game but it gets very tedious to cast a summon every few moves.
I like the idea of adding light sources to monsters, at least to those naga's.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:12 am 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:23 pm
Posts: 264
Location: Hessen, Germany
marvalis wrote:
darkgod wrote:
You could throw a decoy a few squares away form you to lure monsters in ?
(Decoys do not exist I'm just supposing they cold be usefull)


Yeh summoners do that all the time. Its fun at the beginning at the game but it gets very tedious to cast a summon every few moves.
I like the idea of adding light sources to monsters, at least to those naga's.


I like the light source idea too.

But I wouldn't give Naga's a light source, seeing as they live underwater.


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